That just makes the talent even more difficult to understand.

Keep in mind, even with an 18% damage boost from HfB, Mutilate is now substantially behind Combat. So what's the next step, make HfB a 25% damage boost?

This tells you they are probably going to have to rebalance other talents in the tree regardless of what happens with HfB. So why not take the opportunity to completely scrap the talent as well?

No Rogue changes in todays new PTR build.

So, I think that's it for us in this patch. At least we know what we're working with now.

Did somebody already have the chance to test out if Improved Poisons has been fixed?

So for the new killing spree could you swap 2 2.8 speed wep's on and get a poison proc every hit with the new poisons? and if so does your deadly do 20% more per tick for the duration assuming it stays up?

Well the problem with re balancing other talents would make them more useful for the standard Mutilate/Prep build which for them is fine in its current shape. So our only improvements would come on the 45pt tier or lower. The other alternative is if they honestly swapped Preparation and Premeditation which would open up a lot more area in which they could buff the tree's damage without putting it all in 1 talent. Yes this would probably destroy rogue pvp but the tree in general is becoming sub par because they are trying to not make it overpowered in pvp. I know that any serious pvper would not agree with me but this is a solution to solving mutilates damage being balanced around 1 talent.

Yes.

And 20% more of your AP.

This part is actually curious to me. You can do this currently with tricks + SW:P. If you can stack tricks + KS and get 5 dp stack would it be able to stay up? I guess it relies on if on each DP proc that refreshes a stack causes a recalculation in damage or not.


Edit: question answered as I was writing my post

Interesting. That makes it a little unobvious which glyphs to run now for Mutilate. Though I'd imagine Envenom, HfB, and uhh Mutilate? But I'm not sure how Envenom compares vs. the SnD or Rupture Glyph.

And:
Given that there's probably at least 2-3 more weeks of the PTR I seriously doubt that's the last of the changes.

Well have to see, the Envenom glyph is practically like having a second Rupture on the target.

And if that glyph makes it in then do we end up with SR/SR being BiS till any new daggers drop.

The envenom glyph mentioned above makes DP viable on slower weapons, though now that instant poison is on the proc per minute system, it too is less speed sensitive. In terms of mutilate, the idea then would be to get up to 5 stacks as quickly as possible, which would be aided by an early envenom as you ramp up slice'n dice.
I'm more interested in the effect on poison choices for combat.

Edit: Consider Envenom spam for HaT, as well.

Looking like it. Will have some definite results when they get around to fixing Imp Poisons.

Oh wow. That is a really good question/idea. We'd have to really test that one. Assuming you got off 5 pt Envenoms for a 6second buff to IP applications ( which should be nearly 100% with the fixed Imp Poisons ), it may actually do more damage than Rupture. But you'd be running a gamble that IP does indeed proc often during Envenom spam, versus consistent reliable damage from Rupture. This is all assuming a Bleed of some sort is up like you mentioned, otherwise the interference with HfB would make it not worthwhile.

I wounder if swapping WD for an SR offhand after 5 stacks would be worth the GCD?

The time difference between getting up the initial 5 stack would be so negligible that I don't see why you wouldn't just use SR the whole time.

You could also switch to a weapon with Instant Poison and then Envenom without clearing stacks, and enjoy the application buff for double IP. I wonder how that would work out.

Also.. If we were to take rupture out of the rotation, you would no longer need points in Blood Spatter, and could pick up both Fleet Footed and Murder

Taking Rupture out of the cycle, would really help 51/18/2 a lot with the 2 in opportunity, as I think the cycle could become very tight running Rupture/Envenom cycle without Relentless Strikes.

Regarding the new Envenom Glyph and the notion of Envenom spam cycles: it's actually an idea I've contemplated before, and the answer has historically been, briefly stated, that Rupture is simply too good. That with Mangle, Blood Spatter, and the Rupture Glyph, Rupture simply does more damage than Envenom, even counting the bonus IP procs - meaning that, one the lower energy cost is factored in, Rupture is clearly superior.

However, the relevant caveat there is: that presupposes Glyph and Blood Splatter, with the former being the more relevant. Consider: we now have 5 glyphs that as an IDN Mutilate rogue we'd want to serious consider using, namely: Rupture, SnD, Mutilate, HFB, and Envenom. Let us consider, for a moment, how much damage we gain from using each of these:

Rupture, for a typical IDN rogue, accounts for perhaps 8% of one's damage output. The rupture Glyph increases the damage of Rupture by around 27%; thus, if we simply remove the glyph and make no effort to adjust our cycle to compensate, we lose something on the order of 1.7% of our overall DPS. In practice, we might be able to adjust our cycle so as to compensate - but lets assume for the moment that we don't. So Rupture is worth about 1.7% DPS.

Meanwhile: The HFB Glyph increases our overall DPS by 1.18/1.15 = 2.6%. The Mutilate glyph reduces the energy cost of Mutilate by around 8-9% (with the specifics depending on how it stacks with various other effects), which thus, to a first approximation, increases the damage done by energy moves by about that margin; Mutilate, Envenom, and Rupture combined account for roughly 35-40% of our damage output (not counting the bonus IP procs from the Envenom buff, which presumably accounts for a few percent more). But, as a lower bound, the Mutilate glyph presumably increases our damage by around .08 * .35 = 2.8% - possibly more. And, by our previous estimates (here), it appears that IDN* - which is, in effect, IDN with the Envenom Glyph - runs about 2.5-3% ahead of the other options. Thus, even assuming one still uses Rupture in rotations, Rupture is pretty clearly one of the two Glyphs that gets dropped. Thus, the fairer comparison is unglyphed Rupture versus glyphed Envenom - which narrows the gap considerably.

The fifth Glyph is, of course, SnD; which, regardless of the damage it actually does, can be replaced by a single point in Imp SnD instead of one on CQC (or Precision), thus the number of significance is the value of that single talent point, which proves to be less than 1% of total DPS - so the SnD glyph is clearly toast.

Now, at this point, it might be noted that converting from Rupture-based cycles to straight Envenom spam has other advantages - notably, we can reclaim that point in Imp SnD, we can drop the 2 points in Blood Spatter to get our choice of other talents (most likely Murder or Fleet Footed). Thus, the question becomes: which is better, 2 points in Fleet Footed, one in Precision/CQC, and Envenom spam... or Envenom/Rupture? And my guess is that the benefit of picking up 3 talent points probably is enough to offset any loss of damage by switching from Envenom to Rupture, so this probably *does* become better.

That said: the next question is to figure out what the optimal Envenom spam cycle actually looks like. 4+ finishers - as we have been doing - is certainly a strong option. However, we should also consider the option of maximizing uptime on the Envenom buff, which probably involves doing some 3-point finishers. In short: much theorycraft is needed to actually optimize this, but there is some reason to believe that it may in fact be better.

Aside from the buzz around this new glyph, this little gem was missed in one of Ghostcrawler's posts:

Source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Thoughts on PTR Warrior Changes. Constructive

EDIT: Too slow, sorry. Hadn't refreshed the thread.

Now that we know IDN* is "the future", with the new Envenom glyph, I reran this analysis using various combinations of Twilight Mist / Murder / Webbed Death. SR is a whole tier above the other two weapons, which is confounding the analysis of how the IDN* spec scales with mainhand/offhand speed. Note: My spreadsheet is only adjusted to put IP on a PPM footing, and to not remove DP on Envenom. I haven't implemented any of the new glyphs or the changes to armor mechanics.

The table below is based on my current gear. Columns are the MH weapon, rows are the OH.

	SR	TM	Murder	WD
SR	5482.69	5414.65	5384.79	5384.60
TM	5424.76	5351.95	5321.58	5322.10
Murder	5445.54	5371.81	5340.60	5340.52
WD	5463.26	5390.08	5358.32	5356.23

There is a very slight preference for slow weapons in the main hand, and fast weapons in the offhand. Interestingly, these preferences are equal and opposite - 2xTM is almost exactly the same as 2xWD. Itemisation and ilvl is likely to be the primary concern, rather than weapon speed.

Naturally SR/SR is the preferred setup at the moment if you can get it, due to the extra Tier of itemisation + base stats.

I was under the impression from my tests with WD, no haste, 1000hits, that the talent was fixed, unless I made some math mistakes, I had 12PPM which would be right (8PPM + 50% from talent). I did this on Wednesday , the day after the last ptr build push, which gave us Leviathan for testing.
I may have made the calculation mistakes, what is the proper equation when I have given, fight time, number of hits, and number of IP procs?
Here is the data, I know it’s small, but it might be helpful
ImageShack� - Gallery

Well, the trick is, I rather suspect that IDN* as listed is not the future - I suspect the future is Rupture-free cycles and hope to god someone else is using a bleed so you can keep HFB up. And that's going to require some new - and, thankfully, easier - modeling to figure out. The major question is what the cycle priority is - finishers, or the Envenom buff. I have some ideas how to tackle that, but it may be a day or two before I have time to chase down all the details.

How does the new Envenom glyph compare for Combat? The new buffed Deadly Poison is again convincingly better than WP for Combat offhands (as it always should have been), so actually having DP stacked up isn't an issue. Unfortunately the only obvious glyph Combat could pitch for Envenom would be SnD, which is unfortunate at best. But Envenom does more damage than Eviscerate at all CP levels because of armor. I don't have the data or math background to work this out. I know last time I checked it out, they were pretty close, and I feel like the glyph would push Envenom comfortably over Eviscerate as the 3rd finisher, but maybe not enough to make up for losing SnD duration. I also don't remember when the last time I checked Envenom vs. Eviscerate was, it might have been before 3.0.

Now that I think about it, the extra armor penetration on Mace Spec might make the difference: Envenom for swords and CQC, Eviscerate for maces. But that's just gut instinct, I have no data to back it up and I would appreciate it if someone could supply some.

I find it hard to believe that Rupture will ever get pushed out of specs that include Relentless Strikes, simply because a 5 pt rupture costs no energy thus giving it damage-per-energy of infinity. I suppose modern Assassination builds don't include RS though.