3.1 Rogue Changes - Early Preview - Page 37

Len · 03/09/09, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Simalo

I would assume if FoK spam was viable in any means, that you would have a dagger in your offhand. 150% damage with daggers and better combat potency procs would probably be the ideal setup. Sinister Revenge being the first to come to mind or atleast a slow dagger that Ulduar has to offer.

Of course slow non-daggers would work just as well in OH: the 150% makes 1.8 dagger comparable to 2.7 non-dagger, e.g. Deadly Gladiator's Left Render or Pride

Now, thinking about it more, PPM procs would make non-daggers much more valuable for FoK spam/trashspec: they hit the same damage (1.8:2.7, 1.7:2.55 etc) because of FoK scaling up daggers, but PPM would favor non-daggers much more.

Testing proved this true. I stood on the corner of test dummy area, so that only one dummy was hit with FoK. CG MH, Silent Crusader on OH, standing outside meleerange but inside 8yd. Almost every FoK caused 2 Wound Poison hits. That matches with the 90%+ PPM rate of 2.5spd+ weapons. Tested again with 1.4 and 1.5 weapons, and Wound Poison PPM was, as expected, close to 50%.

It doesn't seem intentional that daggers are (again!) so much worse than non-daggers with FoK, as they were when the skill was introduced, but, there you go.

ieatpaperbag · 03/09/09, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Speaker

Hey has anyone tried using all the benefits from Assassination for a build that uses Sinister Strike as it's main combo move? Since mutilate has gotten a 20% nerf I can see sinister strike outdamaging mutilates while also costing 20 less energy and have a 50% chance to gain 3 combo points on crits, with the slow hitting mainhand's that give more poison proc's on instant attacks.

I tried this on the PTR and found that it does really great dps and that it's better to go with an eviscerate build than envenom, but I've read that improved poisons and even envenom could be bugged and aren't increasing the proc rates of instant poison. If this is true than this build could be even better. This build also has a lot of free talent points to put where you want.

It's really awesome because your eviscerate will reset your SnD and you will also get the benefit of 18% dmg from HfB. If this build ends up out damaging Combat than I can see that the Rogue class is probably more broken than I have thought.

Here's a test envenom build, imp SnD seems more mandatory since the rotation is a little bit tighter. You may be able to do it with 1 in Imp SnD and you could also put points aggression or relentless strikes if that proves to be more dps.

Sorry I didn't use the link to the WoWhead PTR version, but it was in maintenance.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

For an Eviscerate build you would just remove 3 points from Imp poisons and put them into Imp Evis.

I'm not saying this build is better than others, but I have no real way of getting good tests. I did some quick tests on the PTR and it was keeping up with the dps I was doing with Mutilate on the Dummy, but it could be different in raids and could be different once they fix the imp poisons talent. Just wanted to find out from anyone if this build would be viable.

It would also be nice if anyone could test the difference of wound/wound, wound/deadly, or instant/deadly. Fast/Slow offhand.

I am assuming you have a fist for your mainhand weapon since you have points in Close Quarters Combat, according to Vulajin's spreadsheet using my gear, raid buffed, and Calamity's Grasp my average sinister strike hits for 3049. Using the same gear, buffs, and Webbed Death/Sinister Revenge my average mutilates hit for 6375. I am not certain how your sinister strikes are outdamaging your mutilates.

Also, using t7 4pc bonus and the mutilate glyph, mutilate costs 52 energy (60*0.95-5=52), sinister strike with the t7 4pc and 2points in improved sinister strike costs 37.75 energy (45*.95-5=37.75). So, sinister strike only costs 14.25 less then mutilate, not 20.

You have points in improved poisons, you would not want to use wound poison over instant as the talent only applies to instant and deadly. If you do not use the envenom glyph, you would want a fast offhand to rebuild your deadly poison stack quickly.

One more thing I want to point out is that with the sinister strike glyph, yes you will get 3 combo points for 50% of your crits, but with mutilates, you will always get 3 combo points when it crits, even if only one hand crits.

sephfiroth · 03/09/09, 5:37 PM

This talk about FoK over a regular CP builder needs to stop.

Trash DPS is not important. Anyone could tell you that specing and glyphing for FoK will net you more DPS on trash.

ieatpaperbag · 03/09/09, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kalisia

Thanks for the info . I didn't know there was anything wrong with improved posions or envenom on the PTR. On a side note, I also threw 3 points in improved eviscerate. With the increase in deadly damage scaleing from 8% to 12% of AP, it seamed to do more damage to leave it stacked at 5 and use evis instead of envenom, or could it have been the bug you mentioned giving false oevrall dsp data ? Are there any spreadsheets with the 3.1 changes available yet ?

If you pick up the envenom glyph (only on the PTR at the moment), you envenom will not consume your deadly poison stack. Deadly poison does considerable dps stacked at 5, envenom constantly reducing this stack reduces the deadly poison contribution to your dps a great deal. Technically the fact that bugged improved poisons and envenom effect deadly poison but, if you are using the envenom glyph it should not really matter too much because you will not have to recover your deadly poison stack after envenoms (this is assuming you are constantly on the same target, and your deadly poison stack isn't falling off randomly do to the lack of procs).

I don't believe there is a spreadsheet out for 3.1 because of constant changes and the amount of work it would take to keep up, but (I could be wrong) for Vulajin's sheet there are a few modifications you can make to mimic some of the changes, such as reducing the mutilate energy cost by 5 on the DPS tab cell G23 (mutilate glyph) or changing your average deadly poison stack to 5 on the DPS tab cell P26 (envenom glyph) to name a few of the easy ones.

Kalisia · 03/09/09, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

If you pick up the envenom glyph (only on the PTR at the moment), you envenom will not consume your deadly poison stack. Deadly poison does considerable dps stacked at 5, envenom constantly reducing this stack reduces the deadly poison contribution to your dps a great deal. Technically the fact that bugged improved poisons and envenom effect deadly poison but, if you are using the envenom glyph it should not really matter too much because you will not have to recover your deadly poison stack after envenoms (this is assuming you are constantly on the same target, and your deadly poison stack isn't falling off randomly do to the lack of procs).

I don't believe there is a spreadsheet out for 3.1 because of constant changes and the amount of work it would take to keep up, but (I could be wrong) for Vulajin's sheet there are a few modifications you can make to mimic some of the changes, such as reducing the mutilate energy cost by 5 on the DPS tab cell G23 (mutilate glyph) or changing your average deadly poison stack to 5 on the DPS tab cell P26 (envenom glyph) to name a few of the easy ones.

Envenom Glyph that doesnt cause DP stacks to be used up ? That solves the problem then, ofcourse I feel like a complete nub for not knowing about this glyph. Thanks again !

I'll try to be patient and wait for Vulajin to come out with a 3.1 sheet, if I were to start messing around with mine I'd probly screw it up .

Holytornado · 03/09/09, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by sephfiroth

This talk about FoK over a regular CP builder needs to stop.

Trash DPS is not important. Anyone could tell you that specing and glyphing for FoK will net you more DPS on trash.

Who is talking about trash DPS?!

Something is telling me the 20% glyph isn't going to happen and thus talk about FoK as a primary ability will end ;P.

Rambaral · 03/10/09, 12:32 PM

Saronite Shiv
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Dagger
187 - 349 Damage Speed 1.50
(178.7 damage per second)
(1734 feral attack power)
+52 Agility
+51 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 34 (0.74% @ L80).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 29 (3.54 @ L80).
Equip: Increases attack power by 74.

First new dagger of interest, although it's got an identity crisis for now.

(link wasn't working, lifted from wowhead)

LykenBL · 03/10/09, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by sephfiroth

This talk about FoK over a regular CP builder needs to stop.

Trash DPS is not important. Anyone could tell you that specing and glyphing for FoK will net you more DPS on trash.

Well the point is that when You finished WOTLK content and started to simply farm all 25s raids trash is getting as much important as boss encounters . Its simply a time eater to get from boss to boss. And for rogues who are really watching thier overall raid dps FOK is a big part of it.

ps. many boss fights demands from rogues to treat FOK as a indispensable skill during fight ex. sartharion

ieatpaperbag · 03/10/09, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by Rambaral

Saronite Shiv
Binds when picked up
One-Hand Dagger
187 - 349 Damage Speed 1.50
(178.7 damage per second)
(1734 feral attack power)
+52 Agility
+51 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 34 (0.74% @ L80).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 29 (3.54 @ L80).
Equip: Increases attack power by 74.

First new dagger of interest, although it's got an identity crisis for now.

(link wasn't working, lifted from wowhead)

I am not sure what you mean when you as identity crisis, I am assuming you are referring to its speed (sorry if I am incorrect). Since poisons have been changed to ppm and assuming you are using a IDN set up with the envenom glyph(aka IDN*), daggers of equal stats and base dps should give approximately the same overall dps with very little regard to their speed. It's a balance between mutilate damage and energy regen via Focused Attacks. I am just summarizing Aldriana's findings in this post http://elitistjerks.com/1121070-post551.html if you'd like to see numbers and read it in the full.

Apithicles · 03/10/09, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

I am not sure what you mean when you as identity crisis,

I am pretty sure he is referring to the fact that there is already a dagger by that name on the live servers.

Saronite Shiv - Item - World of Warcraft

Shaithis · 03/10/09, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

I am not sure what you mean when you as identity crisis, I am assuming you are referring to its speed (sorry if I am incorrect). Since poisons have been changed to ppm and assuming you are using a IDN set up with the envenom glyph(aka IDN*), daggers of equal stats and base dps should give approximately the same overall dps with very little regard to their speed. It's a balance between mutilate damage and energy regen via Focused Attacks. I am just summarizing Aldriana's findings in this post http://elitistjerks.com/1121070-post551.html if you'd like to see numbers and read it in the full.

Edit: forgot DP is also normalized, please delete this post.

saedo · 03/10/09, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shaithis

forgot DP is also normalized

DP isn't normallized on the PPM, still a chance on proc where fast weapons restack it faster. But Envenom glyph removes the need for any restacking.

Rambaral · 03/10/09, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

I am not sure what you mean when you as identity crisis, I am assuming you are referring to its speed (sorry if I am incorrect). Since poisons have been changed to ppm and assuming you are using a IDN set up with the envenom glyph(aka IDN*), daggers of equal stats and base dps should give approximately the same overall dps with very little regard to their speed. It's a balance between mutilate damage and energy regen via Focused Attacks. I am just summarizing Aldriana's findings in this post http://elitistjerks.com/1121070-post551.html if you'd like to see numbers and read it in the full.

It shares a name from the crafted dagger, and the model from Murder.

FredRogue · 03/11/09, 5:27 PM

They are using naxx lvl names for new itens for now... I'm pretty sure that they will change it anytime soon

Kalisia · 03/11/09, 5:54 PM

Again my PTR tests are on heroic dummies, and not actual raids. So far every test I run still shows Mutt out dps-ing CQC (fist/dagger) by a pretty big margin ( about 200 dps with my current gear ) . Does anyone have some hard numbers from raids to compare the two builds with the 3.1 changes ?

Kaidagar · 03/11/09, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kalisia

Again my PTR tests are on heroic dummies, and not actual raids. So far every test I run still shows Mutt out dps-ing CQC (fist/dagger) by a pretty big margin ( about 200 dps with my current gear ) . Does anyone have some hard numbers from raids to compare the two builds with the 3.1 changes ?

Fight one pinch was mutilate, fight two he respecced to combat, there is a fairly huge difference in his dps once he changes spec:

As Mutilate: Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test)
As Combat: Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test)

I realise that this is comparing the broken poison mechanics that is currently affecting the assassination tree, Kalisia just asked for some numbers.

jkcheng122 · 03/11/09, 7:06 PM

do we know what gear Pinch was wearing for each spec? those numbers were also posted before Glyph of Envenom was available. i'd really hope for Assassination to still be viable in 3.1, the change to Hunger for Blood was upsetting enough as is.

Danzir · 03/11/09, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by jkcheng122

do we know what gear Pinch was wearing for each spec? those numbers were also posted before Glyph of Envenom was available. i'd really hope for Assassination to still be viable in 3.1, the change to Hunger for Blood was upsetting enough as is.

Even though the previous poster put a disclaimer, those numbers are not indicative of real PTR damage. One boss, pathchwerk, glyphs not available, poison not working correctly etc.. Could be that things are now fixed and that is why the disparity in mut being +200dps higher. I can't see why lowering some cooldowns and buffing killing spree would bridge the gap to mut (once fixed). -- since both specs will probably take lightening reflexes. Also, I remember Pinch having reports in which they were stationed 10th and 11th on a movement oriented fight. So, the numbers, to me - don't look all that hot, at the moment.

velocibrad · 03/11/09, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by jkcheng122

do we know what gear Pinch was wearing for each spec? those numbers were also posted before Glyph of Envenom was available. i'd really hope for Assassination to still be viable in 3.1, the change to Hunger for Blood was upsetting enough as is.

None of the new glyphs were available at the time of the testing, some of the talents/skills were bugged, and the tester's expertise level was low causing some envenom dodges which is another factor in the lower dps.

Underz · 03/11/09, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by Danzir

Even though the previous poster put a disclaimer, those numbers are not indicative of real PTR damage. One boss, pathchwerk, glyphs not available, poison not working correctly etc.. Could be that things are now fixed and that is why the disparity in mut being +200dps higher. I can't see why lowering some cooldowns and buffing killing spree would bridge the gap to mut (once fixed). -- since both specs will probably take lightening reflexes. Also, I remember Pinch having reports in which they were stationed 10th and 11th on a movement oriented fight. So, the numbers, to me - don't look all that hot, at the moment.

Well the fact muti drops Relentless Strikes/Opportunity for the points in Lightning Reflexes helps bridge the gap. As opposed to combat that doesnt lose any major DPS talents to stick points in Lightning Reflexes.

Grunge · 03/12/09, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by Underz

Well the fact muti drops Relentless Strikes/Opportunity for the points in Lightning Reflexes helps bridge the gap. As opposed to combat that doesnt lose any major DPS talents to stick points in Lightning Reflexes.

While combat doesn't lose any major DPS talents in the combat tree, it can similarly trade RS for Vile and Improved Poisons.
Same as Mutilate trading RS for 5/5 CQC and 3/3 LR.

Adding to that, Envenom Glyph makes Vile even more desirable for Combat.

Underz · 03/12/09, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Grunge

While combat doesn't lose any major DPS talents in the combat tree, it can similarly trade RS for Vile and Improved Poisons.
Same as Mutilate trading RS for 5/5 CQC and 3/3 LR.

Adding to that, Envenom Glyph makes Vile even more desirable for Combat.

Which would simarly bridge the Mutilate>Combat bridge further. I think Blizzard have definately reconised the issues combat has had over the past 5 months (and more) and have acted mostly in the correct way. With all desired glyphs i really think Combat and Mutilate will be a choice as opposed to the fact we have to spec HaT (which is in my opinion utterly cheap and boring) or Mutilate which as a main Rogue PvE spec, could definately be a bit better.

Gahr · 03/12/09, 4:52 PM

Rogue Changes
Assassination
Hunger For Blood - Energy cost reduced to 15 from 30, duration increased to 60 seconds from 30 seconds.

From: Main Page - WotlkWiki - Wrath of the Lich King Information

For all you number crunchers, how much of a difference could this actually make?

Delvaz · 03/12/09, 4:52 PM

Interesting...

Assassination

Hunger for Blood now lasts 1 min. Energy cost reduced from 30 to 15.

mmo-champion.com

Tinwhisker · 03/12/09, 4:53 PM

* Hunger for Blood now lasts 1 min. Energy cost reduced from 30 to 15.

Not quite as annoying, but still annoying. I suppose this will help alleviate problems with it dropping for various controlled and uncontrolled reasons.

Still very unwieldy for small group and solo play. Just as important I'm hoping for the glyph vendor to show up. Three new glyphs for Assassination and no way to test them.