Why would it make sense that the 2 piece T8 bonus should be better than the 4 piece T7 bonus?
I'd say it'd be really lame if we keep using 4 pieces of T7 untill getting 4 pieces of T8.
Not saying this is what's going to happen, because the difference in stats could out-weigh the 4pcT7 being better than 2pcT8. But we can't tell for sure yet, and it depends on what gear is equipped in the non-set slots.
But if 2pcT8 was roughly as good as 4pcT7, then by virtue of better stats, we know the answer.
One other though... has there been any testing done on the PTR if the 2pcT8 can proc off multiple targets? Like for example, a fight with adds, where we use FoK, and that puts DP on multiple targets... will we get 1 energy per DP tick per target?
Maybe because you have to give up the 4 piece T7 bonus in order to get the 2 piece T8 bonus. It'll be interesting to see if the added stats on two T8 pieces is enough to justify breaking up the 4 piece T7 bonus...for combat, I doubt it.
It seems a bit counter-intuitive to not wear any T8 until you have 4 pieces (well, maybe 1 piece of T8 if it ends up better than the 226 chest or legs we wear now).
But it's all good...I can save raid points for off-set items I want while people fight over the first set tokens...then look to get my T8 gear once the fervor dies down a bit. Not much point is spending points on gear I'm not going to wear for a while, when others will be slapping theirs on immediately.
Well, it ends with the next expansion, where the first tier there should be such an upgrade in stats that there could be no set bonus and you'd still replace the top tier from Wrath. But I think your question was intended to be rhetorical.
I guess it just makes sense to me that the new 2 piece bonus should give you an incentive to break the old 4 piece bonus. But it may be that the T7 4 piece bonus was just too good to begin with...I remember thinking that before I got my grubby little hands on it. So maybe they just went a little overboard in T7 and need to scale it back a bit. Which is fine...but I'd like T9 2 piece to be a worthy replacement for T8 4 piece, and it looks like that won't be the case given your estimates for the value of the T8 bonus. So we'll repeat this scenario again with the next raid tier...which seems unfortunate.
The difference in stats between t8.5 and 7.5 is pretty significant. Not only that, but they all have better sockets. The helm has meta and red instead of blue. Chest has red and yellow instead of red and blue, same with legs.
I'm pretty sure that the added stats will make it worth it, especially with the fact that we finally have good sockets and can get our socket bonuses without sacrificing to get them.
Tested Improved Poisons talent today on PTR today on a lvl 60 dummy using an X/13/7 spec to see if they have gotten it working yet or not. Testing was done to ~5k Landed attacks (approximately the number of attacks that could land during the 1 hour duration of the temporary enchant). Results as follows:
Used:
2x1.4 speed vendor daggers with Dual IP
Gear with 247 Passive Haste rating, no haste procs (Tooltip attack speed: 1.3/1.3)
No Specials or outside haste buffs
~2% miss chance on white attacks
20 Expertise (no dodges observed)
Attacks made from behind.
Comparing 0/5 Imp. Poison PPM to 5/5 Imp. Poison PPM @ 1.4 Base Weapon speed w. 247 passive haste rating I have observed a relative change in PPM = 13.7/8.87 = 1.54, which indicates that a 50% increase in application frequency may very well be in effect though I have not done the math to confirm that the 5/5 Improved Poison PPM is 100% outside the possible variance of the control case. Despite the small sample size, I am fairly confident that the talent is working properly, at least in the case of 1.4 Base Speed weapons. Further testing on slower weapons to confirm full functionality and to attempt to reproduce the results will be done in the coming days.
TL;DR version: Looks to me like Improved Poisons is working.
The difference in stats between t8.5 and 7.5 is pretty significant. Not only that, but they all have better sockets. The helm has meta and red instead of blue. Chest has red and yellow instead of red and blue, same with legs.
The sockets argument isn't very signicant since the "sacrificied EP" by a non-JC'r in T7 is maybe ~20EP.
As far as I've been following the nakin math on 2pcT8 so far, it seems roughly about half as good as 4pcT7 for Mutilate, and even less (about one third as good) for combat.
What was the EP value of the 4pcT7 at BiS gear? This would probably give an estimate of how much stat upgrade between T8 and T7 pieces we need to get before breaking the 4pcT7.
Well, the napkinmath is here, but in terms of a more detailed analysis:
Right now, double WP is comparable to WP/DP. Now, the PTR changes to Wound Poison are a significant buff to MH WP, but on the OH, there's actually very little difference - if you're currently OHing Webbed Death, there's no damage increase, and if you're using a 1.5 speed weapon, it's a 7% damage buff. Meanwhile, DP had it's coefficient bumped resulting in a 20-25% damage increase for Deadly Poison; hence, my guess is that we're going to find WP/DP to be superior to WP/WP - set bonus or no set bonus.
Thus, we're assuming we're using WP/DP; hence, the set bonus benefit is basically a straight up 1 energy every 3 seconds, at which point the analysis in that previous post applies - it's a 2% energy regen increase, hence increases all yellow damage by 2% - which, for combat, works out to be about a .7% damage increase. Meanwhile, T7 2/5 gives a 10% increase to the ~5% damage one gets from Rupture, which works out to about a .5% damage bonus. We'll need to spreadsheet it out in more detail, but in terms of initial estimates, it seems like a pretty reasonable bonus.
Actually I can confirm this, I did testing on the ptr last night only on target dummies and saw an increase of around 50 using WP/DP, I also find its not really that big of a change.
On the 4 Piece Bonus and my previously miscalculated lethality statement, It was a mistake and i had a brain laps forgetting the changed the mechanic of lethality. I will fix in original pst and conclude data likewise. The question is really now how much 4piece increases rupture damage.
Also to note I did some glyph testing and found using SnD/Sinister/Rupture to not only beat out Adrenaline/Sinister/Rupture but the rotations where by far much more easier to manage. While in fact not really any tighter as far as time left on SnD it just felt much easier to manage. While using Adrenaline Glyph and a 4/5/hope you get good RNG evis it just seemed to easy to drop off Snd before being able to finish your cycle.
So, in terms of the issue of breaking T7 4/5 to get T8 2/5, the answer - at least for Mutilate - is "it's complicated". Which, given Blizzard's policy that it should be a decision whether or not to use a given set bonus, makes a certain amount of sense.
So, let me now give a slightly more detailed answer:
The following are rough EP estimates of the upgrade from T7.25 to the T8 sets:
Slot
T8.10
T8.25
Helm
45
85
Shoulders
25
55
Chest
90
130
Gloves
30
65
Legs
75
115
Now, T7 4/5 is worth about 200 EP, and T8 2/5 is about 95. Thus, we need 105 points of upgrades before it's worth breaking T7 4/5 for T8 2/5.
So, for instance, if you have the T8.25 chest and legs, it's worth wearing both, almost no matter what else you have - both cover that 105 point spread by themselves, so it's better to wear 3/5 T7 and those two pieces of T8 than either option of 4/5 + 1 piece T8. However, if you have some of the lesser pieces - or if they are T8.10 pieces rather than T8.25 - you may need 3 pieces (or rather, 2 pieces + a third item that's a large enough upgrade over T7) before it's worth breaking.
Point being: if you're getting T8.25 pieces, you're not going to have to wait for 4pc T8 to break 4pc T7. You don't necessarily break it for just any pieces of T8.25, but you do break it before getting to 4pc. If you're getting T8.10 pieces, it may take longer, but... that seems reasonable.
While it is true that the current T8 2pc set bonus is slightly weaker than the T7 4pc bonus on one target (~18 energy savings per min vs ~27), add another DP target and you get a completely different picture. We've already seen that Ulduar has quite a few encounters with multiple targets and we already know that FoK is more damage-per-energy than anything else in our arsenal if it hits 3+ targets (as long as we keep SnD up). With this set bonus, it may become a DPS gain to include FoK in our rotations in certain encounters (Kologarn comes to mind) to keep deadly stacks ticking, providing both energy and additional damage over time. Sounds like a nightmare to model in excel, though, and it's not like Mutilate needs yet another resource to manage!
Of course, using such a rotation on Kologarn would result in less DPS on the most important target so perhaps it's not such a good idea for progression. :P
As several others have said already, I agree that it's a safe assumption that the extra stats on T8 will compensate for the ~9 energy per minute loss on one target from breaking the T7 4pc bonus. By this logic, I doubt that Bliz will be buffing the T8 2pc bonus.
I see all this talk of T82P vs. T74P and I keep wondering, what about the mutilate glyph?
Sure the T74P takes energy off some other abilities but really how much does that matter against a boss?
I would have thought that the Mutilate glyph + T82P would be rather nice really, saving 2 extra energy on mutilate over what we do now with the T74P and gaining back 1 energy every 3 seconds.
So, in terms of the issue of breaking T7 4/5 to get T8 2/5, the answer - at least for Mutilate - is "it's complicated". Which, given Blizzard's policy that it should be a decision whether or not to use a given set bonus, makes a certain amount of sense.
So, let me now give a slightly more detailed answer:
The following are rough EP estimates of the upgrade from T7.25 to the T8 sets:
Slot
T8.10
T8.25
Helm
45
85
Shoulders
25
55
Chest
90
130
Gloves
30
65
Legs
75
115
Now, T7 4/5 is worth about 200 EP, and T8 2/5 is about 95. Thus, we need 105 points of upgrades before it's worth breaking T7 4/5 for T8 2/5.
So, for instance, if you have the T8.25 chest and legs, it's worth wearing both, almost no matter what else you have - both cover that 105 point spread by themselves, so it's better to wear 3/5 T7 and those two pieces of T8 than either option of 4/5 + 1 piece T8. However, if you have some of the lesser pieces - or if they are T8.10 pieces rather than T8.25 - you may need 3 pieces (or rather, 2 pieces + a third item that's a large enough upgrade over T7) before it's worth breaking.
Point being: if you're getting T8.25 pieces, you're not going to have to wait for 4pc T8 to break 4pc T7. You don't necessarily break it for just any pieces of T8.25, but you do break it before getting to 4pc. If you're getting T8.10 pieces, it may take longer, but... that seems reasonable.
Thanks for this analysis, it is fairly consistent with what I'd imagined, but I was surprised t8.1 is as good as it is (I haven't looked at the stats much yet).
What I am curious about is whether it will be worth it to break t7 4 piece with ulduar non-set pieces. Assuming the 3 available 226 off-pieces add up to a 90-100 EP difference in stats alone, even a full set of off-set items might not be worth using over t7 4piece + 1 off-set item.
If that is the case, it wouldn't be worth it to pick up the non-set pieces from ulduar at all, since they'd be a dps decrease.
I'm guessing hard-mode 239 items would add enough stats to make it worthwhile though, but who knows if they'll be easier to get than tier pieces.
So far all 5 T8.25 pieces are competitive with BIS from what we've seen so far. However, I think it's also safe to say we haven't seen anywhere close to all the drops in Ulduar, particularly the hard mode items; until we do, it's going to be hard to say what proves to actually be optimal.
What we can say is that the T8 4/5 is stupidly good, so it's hard to imagine a situation wherein 4/5 T8 isn't optimal. So at most we're probably only going to want one nonset piece for those slots - much like the current scenario in T7, except moreso.
So, in terms of the issue of breaking T7 4/5 to get T8 2/5, the answer - at least for Mutilate - is "it's complicated". Which, given Blizzard's policy that it should be a decision whether or not to use a given set bonus, makes a certain amount of sense.
So, let me now give a slightly more detailed answer:
The following are rough EP estimates of the upgrade from T7.25 to the T8 sets:
Slot
T8.10
T8.25
Helm
45
85
Shoulders
25
55
Chest
90
130
Gloves
30
65
Legs
75
115
Now, T7 4/5 is worth about 200 EP, and T8 2/5 is about 95. Thus, we need 105 points of upgrades before it's worth breaking T7 4/5 for T8 2/5.
So, for instance, if you have the T8.25 chest and legs, it's worth wearing both, almost no matter what else you have - both cover that 105 point spread by themselves, so it's better to wear 3/5 T7 and those two pieces of T8 than either option of 4/5 + 1 piece T8. However, if you have some of the lesser pieces - or if they are T8.10 pieces rather than T8.25 - you may need 3 pieces (or rather, 2 pieces + a third item that's a large enough upgrade over T7) before it's worth breaking.
Point being: if you're getting T8.25 pieces, you're not going to have to wait for 4pc T8 to break 4pc T7. You don't necessarily break it for just any pieces of T8.25, but you do break it before getting to 4pc. If you're getting T8.10 pieces, it may take longer, but... that seems reasonable.
Don't forget that some of the lucky ones are holding onto several ilvl 226 upgrades out of T7 content as well, with each of the gloves/legs/chest being ~50 EP better. So if you're using, say the chestpiece as Mutilate, you have 100 EP worth of upgrades that you can slap on immediately if you decide the 4pc bonus isn't worth it. It's not a huge difference (It doesn't look like the T8.25 helm or shoulders are big enough upgrades to do it, so you're still onto 2 pieces), but there are definitely sets of gear that could mothball most of T7 rather quickly. (Say you get T8.25 helm and shoulders, it's a reasonable upgrade to use Malygos chest/gloves and Sarth legs as the other 3 pieces).
Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.
Tested Improved Poisons talent today on PTR today on a lvl 60 dummy using an X/13/7 spec to see if they have gotten it working yet or not. Testing was done to ~5k Landed attacks (approximately the number of attacks that could land during the 1 hour duration of the temporary enchant). Results as follows:
Used:
2x1.4 speed vendor daggers with Dual IP
Gear with 247 Passive Haste rating, no haste procs (Tooltip attack speed: 1.3/1.3)
No Specials or outside haste buffs
~2% miss chance on white attacks
20 Expertise (no dodges observed)
Attacks made from behind.
Comparing 0/5 Imp. Poison PPM to 5/5 Imp. Poison PPM @ 1.4 Base Weapon speed w. 247 passive haste rating I have observed a relative change in PPM = 13.7/8.87 = 1.54, which indicates that a 50% increase in application frequency may very well be in effect though I have not done the math to confirm that the 5/5 Improved Poison PPM is 100% outside the possible variance of the control case. Despite the small sample size, I am fairly confident that the talent is working properly, at least in the case of 1.4 Base Speed weapons. Further testing on slower weapons to confirm full functionality and to attempt to reproduce the results will be done in the coming days.
TL;DR version: Looks to me like Improved Poisons is working.
So what we're looking at with it fully talented is approximately a 30% chance to proc on hit with a 1.4 speed dagger? This seems like it's going to be a pretty big hit to instant poison seeing as how we have the 5 points being spent to get us to the same spot we were pre patch, granted it is 5 talents every assassination rogue already takes.
What's your input on this? Seems a bit low, as I'd have figured the 5 talents bumping us up a bit over what we were pre patch.
So what we're looking at with it fully talented is approximately a 30% chance to proc on hit with a 1.4 speed dagger? This seems like it's going to be a pretty big hit to instant poison seeing as how we have the 5 points being spent to get us to the same spot we were pre patch, granted it is 5 talents every assassination rogue already takes.
What's your input on this? Seems a bit low, as I'd have figured the 5 talents bumping us up a bit over what we were pre patch.
It just means you should consider using slower weapons for a much higher proc rate.
Basically, the IP/WP change is that all weapons of any speed generate the same number of poison procs that a 1.4 speed weapon did pre-patch - a bit more for slower weapons, actually, due to instant attacks. Thus, it's a significant buff to Combat which uses very slow MHs, and a somewhat smaller buff to Mutilate as it allows the use of a slow, high damage MH while still generating the same amount of poison damage.
As a side note: to the people suggesting that our T8 4/5 bonus is reasonable because other classes are also getting good things: you're not understanding the nature of my objection. The problem is not the balance of our set bonuses versus other classes; the problem is simply that a set bonus that powerful is going to be very very hard to break later. Consider the discussion of whether the T7 4/5 set bonus is worth breaking for the T8 2/5 set bonus, despite the fact that T8 2/5 is very good, and the items are 13 ilvls higher. Now keep in mind that the T8 4/5 is almost twice as good as the T7 4/5. When T9 comes out, it's set bonuses would need to be *even better* to make T8 worth breaking - and if it's not, we will quite literally bypass T9 in favor of the T8 set bonus, which seems very very wrong.
Basically, critable rupture is a good idea, and I'm glad we're getting it... it just really really feels to me like it wants to be a talent (or perhaps a glyph) rather than a set bonus, because as a set bonus it's really just awfully good.
I think in terms of weapons useage its still just whatever we get stuck with being BiS, i am hoping that they give us several options for BiS weapons for mutiple weapon specs. So you dont feel pigeon holded and can do relitivly the same dps using mutiple different weapon types.
I did some ptr Testing just a bit ago and have some screen shots im going to pst. Ill leave them whole so it will be a rather decent size pst. I tested Wound/Wound vs. Wound/Deadly using 15/51/5 spec. Then tested Wound/Deadly using 18/51/2 spec, and Finally Wound/Deadly for 7/51/13 spec. All fights averaged just shy of 6 minutes.
Is getting shots ready will edit when done!
15/51/5 DUEL WOUND (Standard Spec)
15/51/5 WOUND/DP (Standard Spec)
18/51/2 WOUND/DP (Poison Spec)
7/51/13 WOUND/DP (Bleed Spec)
Now based of the data 7/51/13 looks to be falling drastically behind in comparison, but in reality its really not. I ended combat on all samples as stated around 6:00 minutes and this particuluar run had a bad string of rng right at the end, In reality the average dps was around 3540. On that note this would be increased further by Mangle. So in fact I see bleed being able to pull the same DPS as the standard 15/51/5 Build. In all, I can see a general closeness to all 3 specs. The thing to find out now is wich spec in fact does the most damag. No not dps but overall damage.
So what we're looking at with it fully talented is approximately a 30% chance to proc on hit with a 1.4 speed dagger? This seems like it's going to be a pretty big hit to instant poison seeing as how we have the 5 points being spent to get us to the same spot we were pre patch, granted it is 5 talents every assassination rogue already takes.
What's your input on this? Seems a bit low, as I'd have figured the 5 talents bumping us up a bit over what we were pre patch.
Yes, a slower weapon will have a higher chance to apply IP on hit than a fast weapon.
A 1.9 speed mace hasted to 1.77 speed (247 haste rating) achieved 1484 procs in 3692 swings in my latest test @ 5/5 Improved poisons. The total time to get to that number of hits was 1 hour (though because my mace skill is only 350/400 I had a 7% miss chance as opposed to 2% with daggers).
As for it being a nerf as you are contending, it is not. On live right now the base chance to apply IP untalented is 20% and fully talented it's 30% so for a 1.4 Base Speed weapon it comes out in the wash. The real winner are slow weapons, especially main hand weapons so we'll be putting SR back in the mainhand where it should have been all along.
As a side note: to the people suggesting that our T8 4/5 bonus is reasonable because other classes are also getting good things: you're not understanding the nature of my objection. The problem is not the balance of our set bonuses versus other classes; the problem is simply that a set bonus that powerful is going to be very very hard to break later. Consider the discussion of whether the T7 4/5 set bonus is worth breaking for the T8 2/5 set bonus, despite the fact that T8 2/5 is very good, and the items are 13 ilvls higher. Now keep in mind that the T8 4/5 is almost twice as good as the T7 4/5. When T9 comes out, it's set bonuses would need to be *even better* to make T8 worth breaking - and if it's not, we will quite literally bypass T9 in favor of the T8 set bonus, which seems very very wrong.
Speaking as an ex-Feral who used the 2 pc T4 all the way through BC, this is a serious problem (at least IMO). And, there's certainly precedent.
I think all this talk of transitional gear optimization, may be useful but is really not important. Transitional gear is just that, transitional. To me it feels no different than optimizing gear for trash, sure its nice to know and may be of some use but is not really in the spirit of what we talk about here. Then again I may be to optimistic or picky
I think what really needs to be done is have a T8.25 gear thread opened, but it may still be too early to do so, tbh I cannot remember when the current T7 thread was opened. Just food for thought though.
In the spirit of discussion, do not forget most of us have Frost Adroit Handguards and Leggings of the Honored sitting around, although together not better than T7 4PC, when abandoning the first piece of T7 may be of some use and EP compensation. (Sorry if I overlooked someone bringing this up)
Hallagenic, what target dummy were these tests performed on and were there any external debuffs on the dummy. I mean with the amounts of people testing glyphs and specs just want to make sure before we begin to make presumptions.
Speaking as an ex-Feral who used the 2 pc T4 all the way through BC, this is a serious problem (at least IMO). And, there's certainly precedent.
The 4T8 bonus is quite powerful and will be extremely tough to break for t9. Aldriana is right (as usual) on this one. However, I feel it's also a good point though that most other DPS 4T8 bonuses are similarly overpowered. I mean:
"You have a chance when <something happens> to get an instant <3+ second spell>."
"Increases the average damage of <secondary attack> by about 8%."
"Increases the average damage of <primary attack> by about 4-5%."
"<Something you would do anyway> has a chance to give you <a huge stat boost>."
I think that covers all of them except ours, Feral, and Enhancement, which are unique, mostly because we rely on white damage a lot more than other classes so we don't have a <primary attack> to put into type 3. Note that the priest bonuses are obviously not fully balanced yet, but they're clearly meant to be type 4 with possibly a 100% proc rate. These are all going to be pretty darn tough to break when t9 comes out. Personally I am a huge fan of really good set bonuses, especially if they make rotation or priority changes (which unfortunately most of these do not). I assume Blizzard will manage to come up with something to replace these in a few months.
Overpowered 2pc bonuses (such as feral T4 or rogue T6) would be a much worse problem because the opportunity cost for keeping them is much smaller, but it doesn't look like there will be any problems with that right now; most affect tertiary attacks or are much smaller stat increase procs.
I think it is a bit interesting in the direction blizzard seems to be taking with many of the dot spells/abilities in the game. They seem to be giving alot of classes the ability to crit on dot ticks.
Thing that surprised me the most is that they did this with our 4 pc t8 bonus as opposed to a talent and that they did this with rupture instead of deadly poison.
I was hoping that the master poisoner change would be chance for deadly poison to crit on its ticks instead of an increased chance for applying deadly after using envenom. This would have definitely been a big change in the direction people take with deadly and be a pretty significant buff to how much damage it gives us as we have a pretty descent crit chance.
I think that since they have been tossing around this ability for dots to crit so often, the most likely path they would take if the 4 pc becomes too strong for t9 would be to give us this ability for our rupture and or deadly to crit on each tick through talents somewhere in our trees once t9 comes out, that is if they don't change our 4 pc bonus before then.
I think worrying about the T8 4-piece bonus is premature. Have these pieces actually been seen, or just datamined? The datamined priests sets have placeholder numbers on them (15 haste bonus?), or possibly it's just that the datamining process screws up variable names / values.
What we know at the moment is that they intend the T8 4-piece bonus to have something to do with Rupture critting. However we don't know what percentage crit rate will apply - will it be our melee crit rate, or a hand-tuned value? We also don't know that a Rupture crit tick will be 2x damage. It could be 1.5x damage, for example. Would be illogical for a physical effect, but I don't see anything precluding it.
03/19/09, 3:46 PM
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