I also ensure that during this rotation I have a target selected (usually a target with more health than others) so that I'm auto-attacking between FOKs and KSs.
Originally Posted by skorpeo
Not to be picky here, but do we really need to discuss how to spec and also how to preform damage on trash in an instance that most raiders have now left behind? Does trash really need theorycrafting?
Not really I suppose, and I don't presume to think that this is viable in Ulduar yet. Just thought it would be fun to try out...
Naxx is probably not the ideal direction to take this discussion, agreed.
Having said that, while optimizing for trash isn't something I generally would support, optimizing for boss fights where adds play a significant role might certainly be worthy of discussion.
Well gonna ask this question again seeing people flagged me for not asking a more intelligent question. The question was hat vs mut. I have still been playing hat and see a very good increase in DPS. Was wondering if anyone had any stats to share for mut vs hat spec. I have not seen an incredible info that would make me switch out. Seeing that I love the survivability of hat ( cheat death, 3 vanishes, 2 evasions, crit reduction etc...) This alone makes me wanna stay with hat for learning new content. So if anyone had experimented with both specs and has any info on this subject it would be helpful. Thnks.
Of course HaT will out perform any other traditional spec, the problem is with progression, if any of your party members die, then it also affects your DPS. That should be obvious. If you have no problems with your party dying mid encounter, then by all means, stay HaT.
The defensive talents of Subtlety are moot for PvE. Using Cheat death has little impact because you will most likely be wearing no gear with Resilience, which really makes Cheat Death not very useful. One Vanish is more then enough to reset threat tables for the rest of a fight. You shouldn't be getting melee'd much. If you are, your tanks are doing something wrong, or you are simply not ToTT adds to them. PvE mobs rarely and seldomly crit.
Most of the time, when anyone in your raid dies during progression encounters the probability for a wipe rises extremely. This is also the case if your group and thereby your dps stays unaffected. Your loss in dps because of a death of your party member shouldn't be considered as a flaw but the dps loss of your party member. One dead member accounts for not more than ~7-5k dps... it seems much, but consider this an upper bound.
Regarding Cheat Death:
I can't count the times i survived random dmg oder just bad luck because i specced CD. Its not pulling aggro where CD is a lifesaver, its the Ice Tomb @ Kel'thuzad, its a random cleave from trash or a boss, because your tank just moved him, its a void zone you missen, because of fail or whatever... on top of that CD can be a major dps increase considering "the dps of a dead rogue are zero" and the example of Sapphiron where you can continue dps during P2 and supposedly don't hide behind an ice block (if you trust your healers... an healthstones/healing pots)
Most of the time, when anyone in your raid dies during progression encounters the probability for a wipe rises extremely. This is also the case if your group and thereby your dps stays unaffected. Your loss in dps because of a death of your party member shouldn't be considered as a flaw but the dps loss of your party member. One dead member accounts for not more than ~7-5k dps... it seems much, but consider this an upper bound.
So not only does a dead party member result in a DPS loss, it impacts your DPS as well, resulting in a double loss. HaT is a very double edged sword. When working perfectly, it yields great DPS. When not, usually the raid will wipe. But there are numerous cases where a few deaths in raid does not result in a wipe. Are you gambling on the chance that the random deaths in raid are not in your group?
Originally Posted by Cooljo
Regarding Cheat Death:
I can't count the times i survived random dmg oder just bad luck because i specced CD. Its not pulling aggro where CD is a lifesaver, its the Ice Tomb @ Kel'thuzad, its a random cleave from trash or a boss, because your tank just moved him, its a void zone you missen, because of fail or whatever... on top of that CD can be a major dps increase considering "the dps of a dead rogue are zero" and the example of Sapphiron where you can continue dps during P2 and supposedly don't hide behind an ice block (if you trust your healers... an healthstones/healing pots)
In actuality, you can't count the number of times your healers have failed you, the number of times you stood in front of a mob to be cleaved, the number of times your tank can't moves bosses correctly, the number of times you werent paying attention and stood in the fire on the ground. Obviously if you can't even trust your healers to heal you through a Ice Tomb on KT, that you have to rely on Cheat Death to survive, then the chances of them keeping you alive during a Frost Bomb on Sapphiron are nil. Cheat Death is a way to survive "Player Error" in PvE. Nothing more. Is it great to have for a bad situation? Sure. Is it great to rely on constantly? No. If your Cheat Death is proc'ing all night long, something is wrong. Assess the situation and correct the problem. I'd wager 95% of all PvE Rogues at the moment are Mut or Combat, none of them have Cheat Death, and survive to DPS.
Human error is (nearly) the only reason that you wipe on progression encounters. Negate 1 error every minute results in less wipes.
And if you lose say 400 dps from a dead member in your group you only need to do "member_inactive_time x 400" more dps to outweight the loss. If you group member dies in the exact middle of the bossfight you only need to do 200dps. And we know that HaT can dish out that amount of dmg depending on fight etc.
Cheat Death is a counter to a player being lazy, speaking in PvE terms. Sure it has some uses during the learning phase of a boss, but after that, it offers nothing other than letting the player be lazy. Not moving fast enough away from a Death Rune on Council, not moving away fast enough from an Eye Beam on Kologarn; basically being somewhere you're not supposed to be. It's not going to help your healers out because they should know what to do when something happens. GOing back to my original statement: it lets the player be lazy. Once you know the mechanics of the fight, its no longer a learning phase, and maximizing your DPS is going to make the fight go smoother. Speccing into Cheat Death doesnt improve your DPS if you're a smart player. Thats what progression is, thats what separates the good rogues from the terrible ones, and thats what will get your guild further along in the instance.
Now that we've completely derailed this thread, lets get back on topic and start discussing things that are relevant to 3.1.
Well in hat spec in pulling 4k in 10 mans. in 25 man im pulling anywhere from 5-9k all the rogues i know that are in combat cant even touch me in dps. As for cheat death... shit happens and its nice to have a get out of jail card. I have yet to hear a combat or mut rogue tell me in any fight. That they hit 9k dps in any fight. If u doubt this look into the top dps rogues as of pre patch they were hat. So i guess I will do my own research on this and find out. Thought people would be more open for discussion to find out whats the better spec. But all I get is alot of grief. thnks for ur time.
No one is doubting the viability and DPS capability of HaT. We all recognize the potential for it, and the complete necessity for a stacked group. HaT is an extremely easy spec to play, which is why people tend to look down on you. It really doesnt require the player to do much, and instead gets the group to do all the work for you.
I'm not sure I understand how someone could be "looked down on" for playing HaT. How is HaT an easier spec to play than combat? Boiled down, combat is spamming SS and then choosing a finisher. As HaT, you choose a finisher (or a builder) based on the combination of your energy and your combo points. HaT to me is more reactive and involved, but my opinion aside, in 3.1 I don't see how you can argue that HaT "doesn't require the player to do much," and is somehow way easier to play than combat.
Okay, that's quite enough of the HAT vs Mutilate debate. HAT is a reasonably high-DPS spec. With a stacked group, it might even be top DPS. However, it has a somewhat degenerate playstyle that many people don't care for. All of this has been discussed before, and doesn't need to be discussed again. So can we please, please, drop it already?
Cheat Death is a counter to a player being lazy, speaking in PvE terms. Sure it has some uses during the learning phase of a boss, but after that, it offers nothing other than letting the player be lazy. Not moving fast enough away from a Death Rune on Council, not moving away fast enough from an Eye Beam on Kologarn; basically being somewhere you're not supposed to be. It's not going to help your healers out because they should know what to do when something happens. GOing back to my original statement: it lets the player be lazy. Once you know the mechanics of the fight, its no longer a learning phase, and maximizing your DPS is going to make the fight go smoother. Speccing into Cheat Death doesnt improve your DPS if you're a smart player. Thats what progression is, thats what separates the good rogues from the terrible ones, and thats what will get your guild further along in the instance.
In all fairness, Master of subtlety is a fairly insignificant DPS increase even in optimal conditions. You can't predict the flow of combpoints, so even the modest increase you get from spreadsheets will be inconsistent in reality. Having cheat death instead is a reasonable tradeoff, just like taking shadowstep over agression. Although the majority of spreadsheets will tell you icewalker is a better bootenchant, in Ulduar it's probably better to grab cat's grace - likewise people make misstakes, and having CD makes you more consistent.
I've been patiently waiting for Vuljin to update his sheet and decided to try Aldriana's newest sheets to have a feel for some of the new gear and changes 3.1 offers and what direction I should be going.
However what I'm really interested in knowing is how much of an increase 3.1 has given both mutilate and combat. Since Vuljin's sheet is still in progress and I have no pre 3.1 sheet of Aldriana's, I'm curious what others may have seen with a modified Vuljin sheet or the old Combat/Mutilate sheets of Aldriana's vs her new ones. Same gear mind you.
Now when master poisoner is a must have for raiding Mutilate rogues tho some nerfs on the crit chance, I guess we could say good bye to Turn the Tables.
Anyone saying Cheat Death isn't a DPS increase isn't taking taking the ability to its limits.
For example, with Cheat Death, you can stay in and cloak Mimiron Phase 2 without that 10% chance of dying. If you don't proc Cheat Death, you can use it again by staying in while cloak is on cooldown. By the time that happens, you can stay in for a 3rd AOE if you want to risk the 10% cloak fail rate.
As stated before, you can stay in for Sapphiron frost bombs, you can take a cleave/breath on many bosses where other melee may have to move out of range or not take advantage of a power spark by the tank. You can be more aggressive on AOE, vanishing after CD procs. You can risk running taking damage where other classes can't. It completely circumvents some game mechanics that are supposed to keep dps in check. And that's just the just beginning of the PVE uses of Cheat Death.
To say Cheat Death is not a PVE dps increase is incredibly short sighted, but if you treat it as a soul stone, then there's no question that you won't get any advantage out of it.
Anyone saying Cheat Death isn't a DPS increase isn't taking taking the ability to its limits.
For example, with Cheat Death, you can stay in and cloak Mimiron Phase 2 without that 10% chance of dying. If you don't proc Cheat Death, you can use it again by staying in while cloak is on cooldown. By the time that happens, you can stay in for a 3rd AOE if you want to risk the 10% cloak fail rate.
As stated before, you can stay in for Sapphiron frost bombs, you can take a cleave/breath on many bosses where other melee may have to move out of range or not take advantage of a power spark by the tank. You can be more aggressive on AOE, vanishing after CD procs. You can risk running taking damage where other classes can't. It completely circumvents some game mechanics that are supposed to keep dps in check. And that's just the just beginning of the PVE uses of Cheat Death.
To say Cheat Death is not a PVE dps increase is incredibly short sighted, but if you treat it as a soul stone, then there's no question that you won't get any advantage out of it.
This argument has been beat to death in every rogue dps thread ever. Yes it can be a dps increase, but while pushing progression you should never be putting extra strain on your healers by willingly taking yourself to 10% hp, for this reason it is usually not given a value.
This argument has been beat to death in every rogue dps thread ever. Yes it can be a dps increase, but while pushing progression you should never be putting extra strain on your healers by willingly taking yourself to 10% hp, for this reason it is usually not given a value.
This is simply not true. If you're approaching a hard enrage timer or using it defensively to supplement cloak's 10% failure rate, then its already done more for damage than MoS. How you choose to use CD is completely dependent on the encounter, its healing requirements, and risks, but to discount it completely isn't fair.
The biggest flaw with HAT is that it is not optimal for progression content. In situations where raid members are learning and dying occasionally along the way HAT just doesn't bring much to the table.
Savage combat is one of the better raid debuffs there are out there now. If you are the only rogue in your raid working on progression content, that is something to consider.
HAT is a decent spec, it is just something that has to be used situationally.
The biggest flaw with HAT is that it is not optimal for progression content. In situations where raid members are learning and dying occasionally along the way HAT just doesn't bring much to the table.
Savage combat is one of the better raid debuffs there are out there now. If you are the only rogue in your raid working on progression content, that is something to consider.
HAT is a decent spec, it is just something that has to be used situationally.
I think this is a very valid point, and I think the discussion about HaT/Cheat Death viability in progression isn't being particularly fruitful. Yes, Cheat Death can be used to increase DPS where other dps would normally need to run away, but is that something you are going to know about going into progression fights? Maybe. On the chance that you do, I doubt that is something you're raid leader wants you to rely on in place of learning the encounter. Once you know an encounter, thats great, high dps galore, but I think most will agree that for progression having less but consistently reliable dps is of higher value than a chance at higher dps given that x-amount of factors are satisfied in addition to the regular. Its not a question of whether HaT and Cheat Death are viable, it is a question of using it at the proper time and place (as stated so nicely above).
This is simply not true. If you're approaching a hard enrage timer or using it defensively to supplement cloak's 10% failure rate, then its already done more for damage than MoS. How you choose to use CD is completely dependent on the encounter, its healing requirements, and risks, but to discount it completely isn't fair.
HAT is a fun spec to toy around with on fights that are on farm to try and stack a 4 hunter group and get some flashy numbers, it is pretty awful for progression. The fights with hard enrage timers, you will do better playing combat anyway. Those same fights are also pretty healing intensive, so voluntarily draining your hp for 5 more seconds of dps time is not a beneficial raid trade off. But by all means if you only care about damage meters and the end of the fight win or lose, use cheat death as you please.
The biggest flaw with HAT is that it is not optimal for progression content. In situations where raid members are learning and dying occasionally along the way HAT just doesn't bring much to the table.
Savage combat is one of the better raid debuffs there are out there now. If you are the only rogue in your raid working on progression content, that is something to consider.
HAT is a decent spec, it is just something that has to be used situationally.
HaT benefits most by the performance of your group and in such a way is dependent on it, but its dependancy isn't as high as one might presume. One of your group members dying during a progression encounter can be compensated by the four others, without any - or at worst minimum - loss of dps. At the point of two or more players dying in your group you're in fact at a loss towards our two other standard builds. In such a case you're looking at two situations:
- Early deaths: The stress on the rest of your raid will become too great and you're close at a wipe;
- Late-time deaths: The limited time needed to down the raid boss will not diminish your overall output by a great deal.
Furthermore the liability of losing a group member is spread among the raid in such a fashion that best HaT CP regeneration is equally spread among: close range, long range and healers.
You would have a point though if the two other standard builds could compensate for the loss you endured during the deaths of your group members, but that's not the case.
04/21/09, 11:11 AM
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