3.1 Rogue Changes - Early Preview - Page 74

Mavanas · 03/17/09, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Presumably, but that costs damage as well; hence "not being in the situation in the first place" is good too.

I made that comment because the consequence of falling out of your cycle is not as big as dropping SND (which costs around the damage of a 5 point envenom or eviscerate which you gonna skip to put SND up), the real cost is the difference between a 3 point envenom/eviscerate and 5 point envenom/eviscerate, and a slight increase in its energy cost due to relentless strikes. Which is probably a third of a 5pt eviscerate damage.

And that cost has to be compared with what it takes to never let SND drop, which is presumably 1 point in precision. I can't say the answer to that trade off is straightforward. I know many people prefer stable cycles, but sometimes the cost of running a stable cycle becomes too high.

wykedtron · 03/17/09, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Sabmiqys

This is exactly right. Most rogues swear by dual WD, the spreadsheet actually shows it as a small DPS decrease when you choose WD over SR for your offhand weapon. The significantly increased damage from SR compensates for the speed loss.

This is probably subjective to gear if i had to guess. I lose over 100 DPS by plugging in the SR and dropping WD. What i find interesting is the spread sheet shows a DPS GAIN if i drop Ruthlessness and having 3 talents unspent.

To talk about removing the S&D glyph and rotations seeming tight is pretty obvious that situations like that will be highly unlikely. Any decently geared mutilate rogue with standard raid buffs will often find that rupture and slice and dice is up with plenty of time and 4-5CP ready to use a finisher. Losing three seconds on S&D and also losing 5 energy costs on mutilate leads me to believe we will get CP faster to counter the 3 seconds lost. I'm not a number junkie but i see the new glyphs as an obvious choice rather than a tough decision.

noesis7 · 03/17/09, 5:57 PM

*DELETED*

Repetitive information Sorry

Underz · 03/17/09, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by noesis7

So this basically means that faster daggers are back again correct? Or has the freq of each application been changed in some way?

Incorrect, im pretty sure its just because previously it wasn't announced. Just discovered by the community. Now they have just officially announce it.

Yarema · 03/17/09, 6:07 PM

Frequency means procs in a time frame = PPM

And this phrasing has been announced quite a bit ago.

Ensiferus · 03/17/09, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by Sabmiqys

This is exactly right. Most rogues swear by dual WD, the spreadsheet actually shows it as a small DPS decrease when you choose WD over SR for your offhand weapon. The significantly increased damage from SR compensates for the speed loss.

Switch out Envenom for Eviscerate and Deadly Poison for Instant Poison and watch what happens.

Rogues that are using double WD/IP will see a 1-2% increase but ONLY if they have great group comp. IE: A rogue using ONLY IP will see more benefit from spell-based buffs. That's a double-edged sword. They'll also need these buffs just that much more to justify not using IP/DP and WD/SR.

Kemistry · 03/17/09, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by paulsen

Is anyone up for the idea of making a separate 3.1 combat thread?

Indeed.

Malloron · 03/18/09, 4:05 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

The idea is that the amount of energy required for all moves between consecutive SnD refreshes may at times be larger than the baseline regen in that period of time. With the Mutilate glyph, this shouldn't be *too* much of an issue, but it's not inconceivable that situations will arise where you run out of energy to do all necessary moves before refreshing SnD, and thus have SnD drop. Now, looking at the numbers, this should be pretty rare, but whether rare means "it happens once a week" or "it happens once per year" is hard to say. And in the former case, I can see it being worth dropping a point into Imp SnD, as an SnD drop costs a *lot* of DPS, and a single point in Precision has relatively low DPS benefit (on the order of half a percent). So: it isn't *necessarily* worth doing, but the possibility does exist if we find the cycles are too unstable in practice.

Also note that this situation is vastly more common if you don't have Relentless Strikes, as is the case with the proposed 51/18/2 builds.

Very similar to the situation you will be in when you dont have the gear aka. not enough crit to support a decent rotation. To me, the envenom not clearing DP stacks will be the main reason for me returning to mutilate, because it will make the dynamic of the specc even better. I tried playing assassination without Relentless strikes, and also without ruthlessness, and found it more boring. Without the extra CP/energy, the rotation is monotonous like a combat without the cooldowns. Also, HfB cost / duration allows a premature reapplication without much cost.

And I could have sworn I saw you post preliminary results on 51/13/7 vs. 51/18/2 with Relentless strikes trumping Lightning reflexes?

• Aldriana · 03/18/09, 4:15 AM

Yes, 51/13/7 does appear to beat 51/18/2. But there are still some people talking 51/18/2, and this is just another reason why it's weaker - cycle stability will be very bad without Imp SnD.

Krollin · 03/18/09, 4:18 AM

Originally Posted by Malloron

Very similar to the situation you will be in when you dont have the gear aka. not enough crit to support a decent rotation. To me, the envenom not clearing DP stacks will be the main reason for me returning to mutilate, because it will make the dynamic of the specc even better. I tried playing assassination without Relentless strikes, and also without ruthlessness, and found it more boring. Without the extra CP/energy, the rotation is monotonous like a combat without the cooldowns. Also, HfB cost / duration allows a premature reapplication without much cost.

And I could have sworn I saw you post preliminary results on 51/13/7 vs. 51/18/2 with Relentless strikes trumping Lightning reflexes?

Last sentence of yours refers to the state of affairs on the PTR before poison PPM mechanics were announced.
The extra 10% haste from LR would have resulted in a corresponding increase in poison procs with the old mechanics.
In a PPM based system IP procs will not be affected by it anymore.

• Aldriana · 03/18/09, 4:26 AM

Wrong. Current testing indicates that IP is the variety of PPM that benefits from haste.

faded · 03/18/09, 6:14 AM

Originally Posted by Ensiferus

Switch out Envenom for Eviscerate and Deadly Poison for Instant Poison and watch what happens.

Rogues that are using double WD/IP will see a 1-2% increase but ONLY if they have great group comp. IE: A rogue using ONLY IP will see more benefit from spell-based buffs. That's a double-edged sword. They'll also need these buffs just that much more to justify not using IP/DP and WD/SR.

What exactly is that group comp?

Grunge · 03/18/09, 6:27 AM

Originally Posted by faded

What exactly is that group comp?

More precise a raid comp that provides Spell Crit (Mage), Spell Damage (Moonkin, DK or Druid), Spell Hit (Moonkin or Shadowpriest) and Spell Crit Aura (Moonkin, Elemental Shaman).

The only group specific buff is Heroic Presence for Alliance.

Ozzmar · 03/18/09, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by Malloron

To me, the envenom not clearing DP stacks will be the main reason for me returning to mutilate, because it will make the dynamic of the specc even better.

It's been said many times in this thread: the Envenom glyph was removed, and thusly, Envenom will still eat your DP charges.

Speculation would say this was largely due to people using Envenom with HAT pulling 8000-9000 DPS.

Malloron · 03/18/09, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ozzmar

It's been said many times in this thread: the Envenom glyph was removed, and thusly, Envenom will still eat your DP charges.

Speculation would say this was largely due to people using Envenom with HAT pulling 8000-9000 DPS.

Yes Im aware they took away the glyph. Sorry for the unclear language. What I meant was "If it will become the case that Envenom does not clear DP stacks" it will be a very strong incentive for me to return to mutilate.

The new master poisoner looks as if it will allow DP stack to have higher uptime in any case. Napkin math:

30% Base chance + 10% from talents + (15% from envenom * 1.45% MP= 21.75%)= 30+10+21.75

=> 61.75% chance to proc DP per hit (for 1 second per CP after envenom.)

With 40% haste SnD, 20% haste buff and your personal haste gear, RNG will really have to hate you to not give you a fivestack after ten seconds of auto attacks+ Mutilates. I guess I could do some probability calculations on it to find some expected procs in x seconds at some point.