Are you sure it works like you posted because I am under the impression it's 30% Base + 10% (Improved Poisons) + (15% Base Envenom Buff + 45% Master Poisoner) = 100% chance to apply Deadly Poison for x secs.

It also requires an external poison source to boost your mutilate damage.

Yes, I do my reading ... lots of it ... and the majority of resources all believe that combat will be the top PVE spec once 3.1 goes live ... even accounting for any current mutilate bugs. I've seen nothing concrete or numerical to support any idea that mut "will" absolutely out-perform combat once 3.1 goes live, and so I was simply and logically asking if there was something new that I'd missed to support all the extensive amount mut conversation taking place here as it seems disproportional. I've also re-read all 45+ pages of this thread and see nothing concrete or numerical to support why 90% of all conversation here is mut-related. In fact, in my reading this morning ... I came across yet another article that is calling for combat F/D or combat F/S to dominate PVE.

Encrypted Text: Why patch 3.1 won't transform Rogues


Everyone in this thread is talking almost exclusively about Mutilate as if it is a foregone conclusion that Mutilate has been proven that it will dominate, or is dominating PVE, when everything else I've come across points to the opposite. If nothing else, I'm surprised by the discounting of any conversation around combat ... as if everyone is so in love with Mutilate that they don't want to let go.

I'm not telling you Combat WILL dominate, but you cannot respond to my question as if it has been already proven that Mut will be the dominant force going forward as nobody yet knows how Mut will perform once the bugs are gone and changes are possible before it goes live.

My original point was and continues to be ... why is virtually all conversation in this thread mutilate related?

It could be that Mutilate has that "unknown" factor and people like to speculate its future. One could say there isn't much to discuss about combat lately as with Mutilate every time there is a new change announced discussion about that change is present.

Spell crit, yes, but are we absolutely certain spell DAMAGE increases poison damage? I did some testing the other day, got naked at a test dummy that noone else was using, equipped a couple of Dalaran dirks with WP, and hit for a few minutes. I then ate some spellpower food, and hit for a few more minutes. I saw no damage increase whatsoever. Now granted, this wasn't a highly scientific test, and admittedly this is spellpower food, not spelldamage debuffs. I was actually just waiting on my HS cooldown, but does anyone have any conclusive proof that spelldamage increases poison damage? I haven't seen any yet.

Because there's not much to talk about when it comes to Combat. It has good DPS, on-demand burst, cooldowns to use... etc. It's a well-rounded spec. Not perfect, but good.

Mutilate isn't. Sustained, single-target DPS is fine in 3.1, but that's not what the issues are about. It's a tree many people have issues with. It doesn't have all the advantages of Combat listed above. It has the infamous HfB... etc.

You also need to consider the fact that many players probably only have daggers and face entering 3.1 without any other weapon of similar ilvl. So they have a vested interested when it comes to their tree next patch. Others also don't want to go back to Combat after spending an entire expansion down that tree.

Just consider that there's more to talk about for Assassination than Combat, that's all.

Spell Damage does not affect Instant Poisons damage. Where did this thought come from?

IP/IP requires a lot of things and that makes it fragile if you aren't playing with A) great group/raid composition and B) good players that won't let you down via buffs/needed poison (other rogues/hunters) dying. The difference is so marginal that one would almost prefer IP/DP unless they were positive that their raiding core wouldn't let them down. Not as fragile as HATs, but still fragile. Regardless, once again, this setup will be moot come 3.1.

Also - On Deconstructor last night, Wound Poison was outdoing Instant Poison - are Vile Poisons/Envenom still broken? Perhaps the new build tonight will shed some light on this bug.

I'd be most appreciative of one, personally. There's a fair amount of cross-over in mechanics so this thread is good but when it gets into details and tweaking, it's really hard to find combat-oriented data in the vast sea of mutilate posts.

As Riddel said I was talking about Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon and CoE.

Yes that is also correct, however the baseline assumption is that you should be Combat if you are the only rogue.
Hence when talking about IIV, you're already assuming that there is a Combat Rogue, providing Savage Combat for the raid and Wound Poison for you.

From what I can see in these mock simulations, combat sword spec has fallen victim to poor itemisation. Both assassination builds are using dual SR's, whereas "Rogue_T8_20_51_00" and "Rogue_T8_18_51_02_S" has to rely on Silent Crusader in the MH which is a considerable drop in weapon dps. I wouldn't know how to modify any formulae in order to see what a similar DPS MH would do for the overall dps of each spec, however I would be very interested in seeing this if anyone else could manage it.

I'm waiting for a bigger sample size to make sure, but I think the Improved Poison bug was fixed (I would assume that would apply to Envenom too).

Edit:
So far - 1.4 Webbed Death, no haste effects equipped, just Improved Poisons (and whatever it took to get to it) and autoattack.

300 attacks
100 procs

Edit2:
700 attacks
212 procs

Looks good to me.