3.1 Rogue Changes - Early Preview - Page 85

Danzir · 03/20/09, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Raconzor

a) I think Aldriana and others have already shown that the current 2pcT8 bonus is not underwhelming, but rather somewhat better than the 2pcT7 and not as good as 4pcT7 (which seems appropriate).

I just looked back 3 pages, in which this topic came up and I see no clear verdict that 2piece T8 is anything but underwhelming. Infact, imho - it is very underwhelming. Virtually useless on anything other than a boss fight, and even then, it would have to be a longer boss fight to take over the 2pc T7.
As Mut, how many Rupture's was I dropping in a minute? I would say 95% uptime - that is 10% damage bonus on a rupture that is up almost 95% of the time (sans the initial combo few seconds to build combo pts.). 20 energy in a minute (given 100% dp tick time) just doesn't compare, imho. If you die too soon, no benefit. If its a 2 minute boss fight, you get an extra Sinister Strike (not even enough for a mut). I don't know. I just see it as underwhelming given the strength of T8. Its like putting $2 rims on a mazzerati. Is there "some" benefit. Sure, any rims is better than no rims.But its fairly, well, lame.

b)In addition, although I was wrong about the application reseting the ticks, I did show how many times application would occur - and while gaining the 1 energy bonus on application would be about 2.5x as good as it currently is outside of the envenom buff, inside the buff you can expect to land in the neighborhood of 5 DP applications in 3 seconds ... which would make the set bonus ridiculous.

Sure. but I think bumping the energy to 2 per tick (regardless of stack) would be a huge bump in usefullness and make it seeminglty a "good" set bonus.

• Vulajin · 03/20/09, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Danzir

I just looked back 3 pages, in which this topic came up and I see no clear verdict that 2piece T8 is anything but underwhelming. Infact, imho - it is very underwhelming. Virtually useless on anything other than a boss fight, and even then, it would have to be a longer boss fight to take over the 2pc T7.
As Mut, how many Rupture's was I dropping in a minute? I would say 95% uptime - that is 10% damage bonus on a rupture that is up almost 95% of the time (sans the initial combo few seconds to build combo pts.). 20 energy in a minute (given 100% dp tick time) just doesn't compare, imho. If you die too soon, no benefit. If its a 2 minute boss fight, you get an extra Sinister Strike (not even enough for a mut). I don't know. I just see it as underwhelming given the strength of T8. Its like putting $2 rims on a mazzerati. Is there "some" benefit. Sure, any rims is better than no rims.But its fairly, well, lame.

For the love of god, stop posting that energy bonuses are only valid if they give you "an extra Sinister Strike." In your own post you pointed out the reason why the bonus matters regardless of getting "an extra Sinister Strike" - Rupture uptime. Getting that 1 energy every 3 seconds means you perform a Rupture some seconds or fractions of a second faster, which means your overall uptime increases, which means your DPS increases. You do not need to get a free Sinister Strike to experience a gain from this bonus, because the very fact of increasing your Rupture uptime means that your ticks are happening sooner than they otherwise would have, meaning the boss dies faster. Rupture uptime is also not the only way in which you benefit from energy gains - any ability that you would have performed without the energy gain, you can perform sooner with it. This applies to T7 4pc, T8 2pc, Focused Attacks, Combat Potency, and Relentless Strikes.

Shaithis · 03/20/09, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by Danzir

I just looked back 3 pages, in which this topic came up and I see no clear verdict that 2piece T8 is anything but underwhelming. Infact, imho - it is very underwhelming. Virtually useless on anything other than a boss fight, and even then, it would have to be a longer boss fight to take over the 2pc T7.
As Mut, how many Rupture's was I dropping in a minute? I would say 95% uptime - that is 10% damage bonus on a rupture that is up almost 95% of the time (sans the initial combo few seconds to build combo pts.). 20 energy in a minute (given 100% dp tick time) just doesn't compare, imho. If you die too soon, no benefit. If its a 2 minute boss fight, you get an extra Sinister Strike (not even enough for a mut). I don't know. I just see it as underwhelming given the strength of T8. Its like putting $2 rims on a mazzerati. Is there "some" benefit. Sure, any rims is better than no rims.But its fairly, well, lame.

Sure. but I think bumping the energy to 2 per tick (regardless of stack) would be a huge bump in usefullness and make it seeminglty a "good" set bonus.

Perhaps you missed post 1207?

Why are you evaluating 2pc T8 vs 2pc T7? In your evaluation, why are you bothering to consider rupture uptime instead of simply citing that Rupture is ~9% of a Mutilate rogue's damage output? You also came to the wrong conclusion; with best-in-slot gear; 2pc T7 is worth approximately 31 DPS (5580 dmg over 3 mins), which is the same amount of time it will take 2pc T8 to give you 60 energy for a ~5800 avg dmg mutilate. I've obviously oversimplified this by a large margin, but my point stands.

Ozzmar · 03/20/09, 3:43 PM

Has there been any test of the Backstab glyph by anyone? Last I remember reading in this thread, there was a slight misunderstanding of the wording of the glyph. As in, posters weren't sure if the glyph extended Rupture a maximum of 3 times (6 sec) or that if you managed to spam Backstab quickly, 6 sec is the highest that you could refresh your Rupture tick to.

And on that note, has Combat daggers put up any impressive numbers?

Holytornado · 03/20/09, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

For the love of god, stop posting that energy bonuses are only valid if they give you "an extra Sinister Strike." In your own post you pointed out the reason why the bonus matters regardless of getting "an extra Sinister Strike" - Rupture uptime. Getting that 1 energy every 3 seconds means you perform a Rupture some seconds or fractions of a second faster, which means your overall uptime increases, which means your DPS increases. You do not need to get a free Sinister Strike to experience a gain from this bonus, because the very fact of increasing your Rupture uptime means that your ticks are happening sooner than they otherwise would have, meaning the boss dies faster. Rupture uptime is also not the only way in which you benefit from energy gains - any ability that you would have performed without the energy gain, you can perform sooner with it. This applies to T7 4pc, T8 2pc, Focused Attacks, Combat Potency, and Relentless Strikes.

I'm confused. Since when do you wait on energy for Rupture and SND? I always make sure it's there... Isn't it a time thing and not a resource thing?

The 1 SS example is a much more realistic and understandable, imo.

Ticia · 03/20/09, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Holytornado

I'm confused. Since when do you wait on energy for Rupture and SND? I always make sure it's there... Isn't it a time thing and not a resource thing?

The 1 SS example is a much more realistic and understandable, imo.

The point that is being made is that it's not a discrete thing. It's not like the set bonus is completely worthless for the first 2 minutes, and then suddenly you get an extra SS out of it (right at the 2 minute mark), and it's now worth something. Also, since most cycles don't have 100% Rupture uptime, you definitely are waiting for energy, since if you were just waiting for Rupture to run out before refreshing it, then you would have 100% uptime.

As with all energy gain mechanics, people need to stop thinking about it as "well it's only useful if it gives me enough energy to do [insert move here]." Vulajin already said it, gaining energy you wouldn't normally allows you to do moves faster, even if only slightly. It allows you to make your cycle somewhat shorter, which in turn increases your Rupture uptime and number of Eviscerates / Envenoms, which increases your DPS. It doesn't have to give you a whole extra instant attack to be useful, it just has to shorten your cycle.

1 Energy every 3 seconds is an ~3% increase in energy regeneration rate, which means you perform your moves ~3% faster, which means your cycle is ~3% shorter. Obviously it's an oversimplification, but complaining about a set bonus that has been proven to be better than the T7 2-piece seems like a waste. We've already discussed why it can't be some ridiculous overpowered bonus, otherwise there would be no incentive to take it off (or power creep to a huge extent).

Shaker · 03/20/09, 4:12 PM

The argument is silly in the same way you'd think someone was silly if they told you "Man that car salesman offered me 10% off a new car... what a loser, I'd have to buy 10 cars to get a free one!!". Just like money, energy can be used for other things, and even if it couldn't be, hitting a combo move .3 seconds early, or .6 seconds early or whatever, is a DPS gain, because you are doing the SAME damage in LESS time.

chalon · 03/20/09, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Danzir

I just looked back 3 pages, in which this topic came up and I see no clear verdict that 2piece T8 is anything but underwhelming. Infact, imho - it is very underwhelming. Virtually useless on anything other than a boss fight, and even then, it would have to be a longer boss fight to take over the 2pc T7.

Actually, it's already been proven that regardless of fight length, the 2pc T8 set bonus is a bigger DPS increase than the 2pc T7. You might not believe that, but you'd also be completely wrong.

Hallagenic · 03/20/09, 10:54 PM

Let me put it like this then in simpler terms. The T8 4 piece is so good that you would give up allot to have it. There in itself means you'll have 2 set bonus. Why complain about how good it is "which is actually pretty decent" when your going to get it anyway. The topic of this particular debate is useless. If you were talking about the benefits per say dps increase to combat by using DP from energy gain then its valid. But in the end that is only to prove that using Wound/Dp will in fact be better than Wound/Wound which i have already proven in BiS t7.

The new topic we need to look at is what gearing itemizations we should look into. What offset boots/belt exactly were going to need to shoot for. ATM minus testing different specs which will change respectively for dps with 2/4 piece sets respectively is gearing. It is about time that we put together a T8 gear thread and start formulating on that. Because in the end you will be using 4 T8 and it is the rest of the gear we need to start looking at to maximize our dps outside of aforementioned specs/rotations.

probeer · 03/21/09, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Shaithis

Several.

1) Glyphed FoK should not be a consideration unless your guild is having progression issues with trash. If you really want it, you can put it in your dual-spec. I cannot understand why you bothered to compare it with glyphed KS; one is AoE and the other is single-target burst best used during trinket/zerking procs.

2) The rupture glyph is one of the factors that allows a 2/5/5 rotation at present. The SnD glyph is the other. Each offer 25% duration increases. Perhaps one or the other will become optional as a result of the additional haste, but there is also the Vile Poisons vs Relentless Strikes tradeoff and I believe that 3.1 combat will favor Vile Poisons, meaning that glyphed rupture and SnD will not be optional to maintain a 2-3/5/5 rotation.

3) There is virtually no possibility that we will be going eviscerate > envenom in 3.1.

4) The T8 2pc glyph returns a maximum of 20 energy per minute on a single-target encounter. The T7 4pc returns an average of 27. I see no possibility that the T8 2pc bonus will be changed in any way, especially not to 1 energy per stack (which would be 100 energy per minute vs one target, 300 energy per minute vs a 3-target encounter where you can FoK to stack poisons).

5) What makes you think that haste becomes more valuable in 3.1?

1. Good point. We dont really have problems on trash, but my reasoning was the increased FoK dmg would be alot more then the increased KS dmg. Thereby forgetting the most important aspect of us rogues; We dont care about trashdmg, We are there for the bosses.

2. Good point. I am currently combatshit (so with Vile and only 2 in Relentless) and (especially without the SS Glyph) i allready see my rotation changing to 3snd/5rup/5evic with a 85-90% rupture uptime. So you think that discarding both glyphs will be impossible, but perhaps we can exchange 1 and still keep up a 100%snd/100%rup/5pt evic/env? would be great.

3. Nice to see that solved.

4. Ok. From your point of view (the comparisment with 4 T7) you are right about the energy we get from 2 T8. Especially when you look at FoK, it would enable a constant FoK-spam too much (DP-DP on 2 slow daggers with muti build) thereby making it waaaaay OP. Though the 2T8 seems so futile compared to the 4T8. Probably why the discussion 4T7 vs 2T8 is going?

5. Having 10% haste from LR. With no current change in the way haste works on our damage output, now every item valued 100 haste (3.09) will become worth 110 haste in 3.10? Am i making too easy consumtions now?

I actually want to end this post with quoting myself, cause I'd really like some reaction / thoughts on my way of view on the 4piece Tier 8.

If rupture becomes so enormously dependant on the Tier8 4set bonus, wont you feel nerfed without it? after all, it is only a setbonus, and will be replaced lateron in the game. Perhaps even by better ilvl items, now the case with the maly25 chest, hands, or sarth25+2 legs (though, admitted, 4 tier is still better then those 3 together).

"A bonus should stay as it is, a bonus to existing mechanics, that increases the efficiency or damage of a certain ability, etc... This is too much a change in mechanics for a set bonus. This isn't a bonus, this is a new mechanic for the rogue class, and as such, it either belongs as a talent or as a class change in general."

Wogue · 03/21/09, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by probeer

5. Having 10% haste from LR. With no current change in the way haste works on our damage output, now every item valued 100 haste (3.09) will become worth 110 haste in 3.10? Am i making too easy consumtions now?

I was unsure about the haste with LR, with 10% haste from items it seems quite gear dependent, the case being that if you found yourself with relatively haste free gear, it could get to the point where LR becomes a waste of 3 talent points if you have gear with low enough haste.

I read it as 10% attack speed, to make it equal across all levels of gear. Has anyone got any solid confirmation that LR is indeed 10% extra haste from items, and not just badly worded by Blizzard?

Zaniel · 03/21/09, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Wogue

I was unsure about the haste with LR, with 10% haste from items it seems quite gear dependent, the case being that if you found yourself with relatively haste free gear, it could get to the point where LR becomes a waste of 3 talent points if you have gear with low enough haste.

I read it as 10% attack speed, to make it equal across all levels of gear. Has anyone got any solid confirmation that LR is indeed 10% extra haste from items, and not just badly worded by Blizzard?

Hopping onto the PTR and equipping gear such as to get to 0 haste rating (in combat spec, with LR of course), my dual Webbed Deaths are down to 1.27 character sheet speed. That's a touch under a 10% reduction from their default 1.40.

Re-equipping my haste gear (default gear) but still in the Combat spec, my SR tracks in at 1.50, WD at 1.17 with 301 (9.18%) haste. On the WD, that's a total of 16.5% haste, which suggests that the haste bonuses aren't purely additive. It looks like 10% from LR comes first, then the 9% from gear, taking the 9% off of 1.27 not 1.40.

Finally, swapping back to normal (Mut, no LR) spec in default gear, SR is at 1.65, WD at 1.28, again with 301 (9.18%) haste.

This is all just rough napkinmath, though. Feel free to correct me if I'm completely wrong. It's been a while since I really messed with numbers. Do the observed haste %s look a bit low? Or am I thinking too much about a 1-2% discrepancy from what I'd expected?

Shaithis · 03/21/09, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by Wogue

I was unsure about the haste with LR, with 10% haste from items it seems quite gear dependent, the case being that if you found yourself with relatively haste free gear, it could get to the point where LR becomes a waste of 3 talent points if you have gear with low enough haste.

I read it as 10% attack speed, to make it equal across all levels of gear. Has anyone got any solid confirmation that LR is indeed 10% extra haste from items, and not just badly worded by Blizzard?

10% haste from items only would be rediculously underpowered, so no, I m pretty sure that it will be a flat 10% increase.

Raconzor · 03/21/09, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Marroc

Why are you dividing by 15.77 for the haste rating part of your calculation? Isn't the rating to 1% ratio 32.79?

That would make your calculation = 1.8/(1.4*1.2*1.076) = 0.995 not 0.924 for the slow weapon and 0.77 for the 1.4 speed.

It doesn't have a huge impact on the math, but it's worth noting.

Thanks for catching that, I was using an older formula obviously, the post is now updated.

And just to clarify again - the concern I expressed in that post has been shown to be invalid.

Backgoode · 03/21/09, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Zaniel

Re-equipping my haste gear (default gear) but still in the Combat spec, my SR tracks in at 1.50, WD at 1.17 with 301 (9.18%) haste. On the WD, that's a total of 16.5% haste, which suggests that the haste bonuses aren't purely additive. It looks like 10% from LR comes first, then the 9% from gear, taking the 9% off of 1.27 not 1.40.

It's been known for quite some time that haste effects are multiplicative. Weapon speed/((haste effect1)*(haste effect2)* ... * (haste effectx)), where each haste effect is 1 + the percentage of haste, 1.4 for SnD for instance.