3.1 Rogue Changes - Early Preview - Page 96

sedrikk · 04/06/09, 7:02 PM

According to wowhead it is 15 agi and 16 crit rating respectively.

Rangvald · 04/07/09, 4:18 AM

THIS is probably the best combatspec out there, but the big question for me is, do I put the last 5 points in Relentless Strikes or only 2 points there and the last 3 in Vile Poisons? Now that DP have been buffed on the APscaling, and given you are running a Glyph of Envenom, wouldnt the later choice be a rather valid dps boost?

I havent done any PTRtesting myself since for some reason I cant install the client, but thinking abit about the math I do find this so be a rather good choice for us to go a few hundred dps higher than what we used to!

Please, do correct me if im totally out of line here!

Jarush · 04/07/09, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by Rangvald

THIS is probably the best combatspec out there, but the big question for me is, do I put the last 5 points in Relentless Strikes or only 2 points there and the last 3 in Vile Poisons? Now that DP have been buffed on the APscaling, and given you are running a Glyph of Envenom, wouldnt the later choice be a rather valid dps boost?

I havent done any PTRtesting myself since for some reason I cant install the client, but thinking abit about the math I do find this so be a rather good choice for us to go a few hundred dps higher than what we used to!

Please, do correct me if im totally out of line here!

Glyph of Envenom doesn't exist.

Rangvald · 04/07/09, 4:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jarush

Glyph of Envenom doesn't exist.

Oh, my bad then, I did read about it in Patchnotes, but perhaps I missed if they took it away from Livenotes!

But my question still stands, will the damage from DP beat the extra energy (and indirect damage) from Relentless Strikes?

EDIT, Yeah, you are right my friend, its not in the current patchnotes, thank you for correcting me!

Minka · 04/07/09, 5:43 AM

Vile Posions is beating RS atm, and it will still be beating it. 20% more DMG from poisons is much more than 5/5 RS will bring in DPS.

amele · 04/07/09, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Beefyfife

Found this from MMO-champion "Flexweave Underlay now grants passive agility in addition to its normal effect. Nitro Boosts now grant passive critical strike rating in addition to their speed boost." I do not have a character on the PTR does anyone have the numbers for how much these values are? Does that change the "preferred" professions away from Jewelcrafting. I am currently a Leatherworker/Engineer who was considering changing prior to this note which no one seems to have noticed.

Patch 3.1 - Patch Notes

Oh, we noticed; it's just that the bonuses are still less than the best-available general enchant so no one is talking about it. (In the case of nitro boosts you lose the hit rating from Icewalker; for the parachute, you miss out on about 33% of the agi from Major Agility.)

These two rather lackluster buffs weren't enough to convince me to keep it in the face of the other changes (GLG damage was halved and nitro boosts will now cause flag drops in addition to remaining 2 secs.) The only reasons I'm hanging onto it currently is the mote extractor and stealth detection bonus for pvp, and I'm seriously considering switching away from it to JC or Enchanting once 3.1 hits.

ieatpaperbag · 04/07/09, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Minka

Vile Posions is beating RS atm, and it will still be beating it. 20% more DMG from poisons is much more than 5/5 RS will bring in DPS.

I am not sure I am seeing this using Mavanas's 3.1 simulator. With 5/5 Relentless Strikes, "BiS" gear, Wound Poison on MH, Deadly Poison on OH, and typical raid buffs the simulator gave me about 6235DPS and with 2/5 Relentless Strikes and 3/3 Vile Poisons I saw about a 2.65% decrease in DPS. A part of this is because poison damage makes up a much smaller part of a combat rogue's damage, about 21% with 5/5 RS and 23.5% with 2/5 RS and 3/3 Vile compared to a mutilate rogue's 37.5%. Interestingly enough, with 5/5 RS the simulator showed that you do more wound poison damage then if you had 2/5 RS and 3/3 Vile (256,000 compared to 241,000), I suspect this is because SnD fell off twice as much with the latter spec resulting in less procs. The difference can also be attributed to about 30% more rupture uptime with 5/5 RS which will be a wider gap with 4pc T8. Relentless Strikes generates a lot of energy and is very important to cycle stability. I am interested to see where you heard that Vile is beating Relentless Strikes.

Mavanas · 04/07/09, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

I am not sure I am seeing this using Mavanas's 3.1 simulator. With 5/5 Relentless Strikes, "BiS" gear, Wound Poison on MH, Deadly Poison on OH, and typical raid buffs the simulator gave me about 6235DPS and with 2/5 Relentless Strikes and 3/3 Vile Poisons I saw about a 2.65% decrease in DPS. A part of this is because poison damage makes up a much smaller part of a combat rogue's damage, about 21% with 5/5 RS and 23.5% with 2/5 RS and 3/3 Vile compared to a mutilate rogue's 37.5%. Interestingly enough, with 5/5 RS the simulator showed that you do more wound poison damage then if you had 2/5 RS and 3/3 Vile (256,000 compared to 241,000), I suspect this is because SnD fell off twice as much with the latter spec resulting in less procs. The difference can also be attributed to about 30% more rupture uptime with 5/5 RS which will be a wider gap with 4pc T8. Relentless Strikes generates a lot of energy and is very important to cycle stability. I am interested to see where you heard that Vile is beating Relentless Strikes.

See if using IP on your main hand for 18/51/2 spec changes your conclusion. With my gear setup, I am seeing around 6100 dps for 18/51/2 using envenom, IP on MH and DP on OH. As for 15/51/5, I can't match your results. With my gear (close to BiS, using Grim Toll), I am seeing around 5900 dps (SS, SND and rupture glyphs), WP on OH and DP on OH.

Btw just to make sure, you should run an actual simulation macro instead of looking at combat tab because then you are only looking at one instance of a fight and subjecting the results to RNG.

Also make sure you are using the latest version (Simulation 3.1f) because I fixed energy a bug with improved sinister strike which will certainly change the dps estimates.

ieatpaperbag · 04/07/09, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

See if using IP on your main hand for 18/51/2 spec changes your conclusion. With my gear setup, I am seeing around 6100 dps for 18/51/2 using envenom, IP on MH and DP on OH. As for 15/51/5, I can't match your results. With my gear (close to BiS, using Grim Toll), I am seeing around 5900 dps (SS, SND and rupture glyphs), WP on OH and DP on OH.

Btw just to make sure, you should run an actual simulation macro instead of looking at combat tab because then you are only looking at one instance of a fight and subjecting the results to RNG.

Also make sure you are using the latest version (Simulation 3.1f) because I fixed energy a bug with improved sinister strike which will certainly change the dps estimates.

I have been using 3.1e, which may be a source of discrepancy, I typically read the overall dps from the Inputs page where I use the button to start the DPS simulation and then use the Combat tab to look at damage breakdown and how often Rupture and SnD faded (let me know if this is not how I should be using the sheet). I have meeting until when I raid today and won't have time to test out what you are asking until later tonight, I'll post my results then.

Deichsler · 04/07/09, 5:27 PM

On a sidenote, is it possible that the rogue simulation 3.1 file isn't compatible with open office? i'm getting some missing files when i try to run the simulation. Did anyone have the same problems?

chalon · 04/07/09, 5:30 PM

Mavanas's simulator will most definitely not work in open office, since it doesn't support VB macros.

Tehnoob1 · 04/07/09, 5:33 PM

so with the changes to ip proc mechanics faster daggers will still be favorable over slower ones for muti given equal ilevel correct?

Solex · 04/07/09, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

See if using IP on your main hand for 18/51/2 spec changes your conclusion. With my gear setup, I am seeing around 6100 dps for 18/51/2 using envenom, IP on MH and DP on OH. As for 15/51/5, I can't match your results. With my gear (close to BiS, using Grim Toll), I am seeing around 5900 dps (SS, SND and rupture glyphs), WP on OH and DP on OH.

Btw just to make sure, you should run an actual simulation macro instead of looking at combat tab because then you are only looking at one instance of a fight and subjecting the results to RNG.

Also make sure you are using the latest version (Simulation 3.1f) because I fixed energy a bug with improved sinister strike which will certainly change the dps estimates.

I've been playing around with it as well using 3.1f, I found that when you click the 15/51/5 tab it doesn't give you the points for lightning reflexes and puts them in unfair advantage and imp sprint instead that might be why some numbers are different. I'm also using about BiS gear I'm pulling some different numbers too. I tried both with and without envenom since, poisons seem to be a little touchy right now.

15/51/5 (ss, arush and kspree glyphs) with wd mh and dp oh using envenom: 6,134
15/51/5 same glyphs same poisons with evis: 6,226

18/51/2 (ss, arush and kspree gylphs) mh ip and oh dp using envenom: 6,156
18/51/2 same glyphs and poisons with evis: 6,054

I hope this helps clear up some confusion.

ieatpaperbag · 04/07/09, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

See if using IP on your main hand for 18/51/2 spec changes your conclusion. With my gear setup, I am seeing around 6100 dps for 18/51/2 using envenom, IP on MH and DP on OH. As for 15/51/5, I can't match your results. With my gear (close to BiS, using Grim Toll), I am seeing around 5900 dps (SS, SND and rupture glyphs), WP on OH and DP on OH.

Btw just to make sure, you should run an actual simulation macro instead of looking at combat tab because then you are only looking at one instance of a fight and subjecting the results to RNG.

Also make sure you are using the latest version (Simulation 3.1f) because I fixed energy a bug with improved sinister strike which will certainly change the dps estimates.

Managed to find some time, ran each of these cases 3 times and averaged them (300 iterations, 5min fight). Used the same gear in my armory except for Calamity's Grasp in MH, Webbed Death in OH, Belt of the Tortured (to maintain poison hit cap), switched out all of my expertise gems such that I was just above expertise dodge cap, used the same glyphs you used, and moved points into Lightning Reflexes as mentioned by Solex

2/5 Relentless Strikes and 3/3 Vile Poisons
- Evis, IP in MH, DP in OH (5,782DPS)
- Evis, WP in MH, DP in OH (5,841DPS)
- Enven, IP in MH, DP in OH (5,932DPS)
- Enven, WP in MH, DP in OH (5,792DPS)

5/5 Relentless Strikes and 0/3 Vile Poisons
- Evis, IP in MH, DP in OH (5,773DPS)
- Evis, WP in MH, DP in OH (5,952DPS)
- Enven, IP in MH, DP in OH (5,851DPS)
- Enven, WP in MH, DP in OH (5,859DPS)

I realize a few of these cases are pointless. 18/51/2 Envenom with IP/DP is a lot closer to 15/51/5 Evis WP/DP then I had expected. I have not been combat since WotLK came out and probably should spend some time to optimize my gear for each of these cases and see if I can get the 6,100 DPS you are getting.

Mavanas · 04/07/09, 7:04 PM

I think I found it. In my previous simulation version (3.1f), while trying to standardize envenom DPS rules along the lines of slice and dice and rupture I inadvertedly introduced a new bug with envenom, which is likely to lower dps of any spec that uses envenom. The bug prohibited its use before the refresh timer of envenom buff was up.

I have caught the bug since then and my calculations with 6100 dps were already based on a properly working envenom. I will release the new version soon, which will also have t8 with working bonuses and new armor reduction calculations.