I would probably agree with you on the human factor and that by opening with a garrote you are going to waste some autoattack uptime. However you need to take into account that you are also losing HfB uptime, which probably needs to be quantified and compared to the autoattack damage you gain.
Out of the attacks that are going to be affected by HfB at the start, we have deadly poison, instant poison and autoattacks. DP will not be fully stacked and IP will not be proccing from DP refreshes. Suppose it takes 4 seconds of the fight to proc HfB. During that period I would do 3 main hand attacks and 4 offhand attacks (for haste I am using my stats: t9 +mix of 245 and 258 gear, above average, but not top of the line by any means). For reasons of comparison with garrote case, where you won't have HfB for the first autoattack anyway, I am only going to consider 2 mainhand attacks and 3 offhand attacks. In the first 4 seconds, excluding 1 mainhand and 1 offhand autoattack, I expect to do 2099 MH damage, 2367 OH damage, 778 IP damage, and 1 tick of DP (assumed 2 stacks) of 2640. If I had HfB up (by applying garrote first), I would gain 1420 damage. In the garrote case, I also apply a garrote without HfB, and in autoattack case, I would apply one mutilate without HfB buff, so the marginal effect of no HfB on those two abilities is about cancelled.
So the lack of HfB is worth about 1420 damage, which is just shy of 1 second autoattack dps at the start without any buffs. If you think you lose about 0.9 seconds of dps due to human factor by not being able to apply garrote instantly, then yes autoattacking is probably the way to go. Otherwise, I'd probably go with garrote - HfB - mutilate - SND, etc.
Couple points you're missing:
1. Opening with mut could proc deadly poison, therefore lowering the initial ramp up time.
2. You can start with SnD instead of HfB, at this point with our damage spread I'm pretty sure its on par or at least very close to starting with HfB, also lowers the ramp up time as well.
3. You get more cp towards the initial envenom.
I've always been doing Mut -> SnD -> HfB -> Envneom, which has always worked out better for me than the starting rotation you've described.
How long does it take before you can apply HfB? Rough estimate in seconds would suffice.
This is because I'd like to compare what you said to Garrote>HfB>SnD.
With the above startup you pretty much get both buffs up immediately, although with muti>SnD you must wait for a bleed from another raid member. Also bear in mind that warriors must wait a fair bit before dpsing, since their abilties cause quite a bit of burst aggro, and hunters and druids don't start off with bleeds either.
if the warrior gets in range before you .. you're doing something wrong.
Flaw here. Warriors charge to get to the target before rogues. The Gormokk exception was mentioned in the section you quoted.
Originally Posted by Akraat
Nothing is stopping you from spamming Garrote as soon as you are in range / as soon as the boss is attackable. Even if there was a delay between garrote and auto attacks, it would be so minimal that the uptime from HfB would definitely outweigh it.
Except that not all bosses start in melee range or facing away from you. Having auto attack up already and starting with mutilate would undeniably be a damage increase in those situations. Current examples would be Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Faction Champions, Twin Valkyrs, and Anub'Arak. Also, this:
Originally Posted by Mavanas
If you think you lose about 0.9 seconds of dps due to human factor by not being able to apply garrote instantly, then yes autoattacking is probably the way to go.
I realise that this is based on napkin math, but it does support going straight into the attack cycle and not waiting for positioning to open with Garrote.
Originally Posted by Akraat
with muti>SnD you must wait for a bleed from another raid member. Also bear in mind that warriors must wait a fair bit before dpsing, since their abilties cause quite a bit of burst aggro, and hunters and druids don't start off with bleeds either.
In my raids, the wait time to apply HFB is usually less than two GCDs. In other words, in the time it takes to Mutilate and then SND, someone else already has a bleed on the target and next you can cast HFB. Warriors generate bleeds from auto attacks via Deep Wounds, so the alleged aggro of their abilities is irrelevant. Plus, generally in raids tanks start out with a pretty huge aggro lead thanks to Tricks of the Trade and Misdirection from multiple sources. Also, why wouldn't a druid be able to Mangle in that time frame? Wouldn't it be in his best interest to get his DoTs up as soon as possible?
There are just too many other sources of bleeds in a raid to waste damage time on the positioning and stealth requirements from Garrote. The fact that it's also missing the bonuses from Opportunity, Blood Spatter, Glyph of Garrote, HFB, or anything else that increases it's damage/duration really makes it lackluster.
As Killme888 and I have both mentioned, Mutilate is also going to give another chance to apply offhand poison. Garrote does not.
Also, why wouldn't a druid be able to Mangle in that time frame? Wouldn't it be in his best interest to get his DoTs up as soon as possible?
Mangle is not a bleed, although it does buff bleed damage. I've read people asking if it works as a bleed for the purposes of HfB, but I don't believe I've ever actually seen anyone answer in the affirmative to it.
That said, if you have both a feral tank and dps, the tank is liable to use Mangle almost immediately. The dps should then be using Rake as their initial attack, since it's their highest damage per energy CP generator, and that is a bleed.
Mangle is not a bleed, although it does buff bleed damage. I've read people asking if it works as a bleed for the purposes of HfB, but I don't believe I've ever actually seen anyone answer in the affirmative to it.
I mentioned about 15 posts ago that pre-3.3, Mangle was enough to allow the use of HfB. A confirmation of that is needed post-3.3, as I personally haven't specced Mutilate since then.
I mentioned about 15 posts ago that pre-3.3, Mangle was enough to allow the use of HfB. A confirmation of that is needed post-3.3, as I personally haven't specced Mutilate since then.
I don't think you ever could, at least I remember it took a few seconds for feral dps or tank to get a bleed up for me to HfB, and in any case it's not working now.
1. Opening with mut could proc deadly poison, therefore lowering the initial ramp up time.
2. You can start with SnD instead of HfB, at this point with our damage spread I'm pretty sure its on par or at least very close to starting with HfB, also lowers the ramp up time as well.
3. You get more cp towards the initial envenom.
I've always been doing Mut -> SnD -> HfB -> Envneom, which has always worked out better for me than the starting rotation you've described.
To take your points into account, I looked at a different opening sequence, which I also practice myself from time to time. So now comparing:
I assumed no relentless proc for the first SND for both cases, however I understand that it's more likely to proc for case B. In either case SND is refreshed before it runs out. Counting all damage, I get 44201 damage in case A and 42968 damage in the first 6 seconds in case B. So the difference is 1233 damage which is worth 0.6 seconds of autoattack and instant poison dps. In other words if you can open with a garrote immediately after the target becomes attackable, you should do that; otherwise opening with autoattack/mutilate is probably the better choice. That was assuming you can HfB after 4 seconds of combat. If you find that you can HfB earlier, then it will favor mutilate opener even more.
Overkill
"While stealthed, and for 20 seconds after breaking stealth, you regenerate 30% additional energy."
I tend to open with with garrote only because I'm already stealthed for that 20sec buff. I have never had any problems with starting up my rotation in less than 4 seconds. Gar -> Snd -> Hfb -> Mut -> Env. Hit sprint and time it right with a tricks to the tank and never a problem of pulling agro.
However I choose mutilate or envenom depending on combo points if vanishing mid fight. Me not having blood spatter makes it an easier decision to leave out garrote at that time.
In terms of maximizing the use of overkill. I've created this simple yet extremely effective macro which I've tested and proven to be effective 100% of the time.
What this macro essentially does is as soon as you cast vanish, it will immeditely autoattack you out of stealth. The /cancelaura line is just in there as a safety precaution in case it wasn't working.
Press Once: Vanish
Press Twice: Statattack out of Vanish
What does this macro look like it in game? To put it simply, it seems as though you never vanished in the first place. You dont miss any auto-attacks, you are immediately back in your non-stealth rotation, and you have overkill. It is almost as though someone casted overkill on you.
In any case where you dont need to reopen with a garrote to maintain your HFB. I feel this will be the superior way to overkill in raid boss fights.
I assumed no relentless proc for the first SND for both cases, however I understand that it's more likely to proc for case B. In either case SND is refreshed before it runs out. Counting all damage, I get 44201 damage in case A and 42968 damage in the first 6 seconds in case B. So the difference is 1233 damage which is worth 0.6 seconds of autoattack and instant poison dps. In other words if you can open with a garrote immediately after the target becomes attackable, you should do that; otherwise opening with autoattack/mutilate is probably the better choice. That was assuming you can HfB after 4 seconds of combat. If you find that you can HfB earlier, then it will favor mutilate opener even more.
If you run with fury warriors and/or feral tanks, the chances of them not getting a bleed up after 2 globals is pretty astronomically low with the current gear inflation.
I'm a bit confused, the opening sequence you mentioned above would at best be at 1cp.
How exactly will you be at 3cp?
Wow, I don't know how that went completely over my head and I guess I didn't even read what I even typed, my usual rotation is case B. I'll edit out the nonsensical parts.
What I would be interested in concerning the T10 2PC bonus is whether you recommend holding it strictly on cooldown or whether you prefer to use it "intelligent", for example when RS did not proc and you are about to let the envenom buff drop.
In my personal situation that still happens quite often so it would not mean I let too much time pass before i cast the next TotT. Of course I know it depends on the boss etc., but I am interested in your general opinion.
I would say using the benefit of the 2piece bonus intelligently would most definitely be the most effective use of it rather than mashing it on cooldown. I don't think that the reasoning behind this decision requires much explanation as energy capping, and in this case perhaps even over-capping is a terrible thing to do to your dps. As a mutilate rogue, the 3 most important things to remember even if you choose to forget EVERYTHING ELSE would be:
1. Don't Let HFB Drop
2. Don't Let S&D Drop
3. Don't Let your energy cap out.
All 3 of these things are fairly easy to do. I would most likely use it in the beginning before the pull to maximize the dps of my opening rotation as waiting a couple globals to dps safely can put you behind. Afterwards I would use it on cooldown if you have 75 energy or less. TotT grants you 15, and I'm leaving a 10 energy leeway to safely use the energy before capping out. There are focused attacks as well as perhaps the "Invigorating" proc to account for (if you are using Heartpierce as your MH) so I feel as though an additional 10 energy window would suffice.
I would say using the benefit of the 2piece bonus intelligently would most definitely be the most effective use of it rather than mashing it on cooldown. I don't think that the reasoning behind this decision requires much explanation as energy capping, and in this case perhaps even over-capping is a terrible thing to do to your dps. As a mutilate rogue, the 3 most important things to remember even if you choose to forget EVERYTHING ELSE would be:
1. Don't Let HFB Drop
2. Don't Let S&D Drop
3. Don't Let your energy cap out.
All 3 of these things are fairly easy to do. I would most likely use it in the beginning before the pull to maximize the dps of my opening rotation as waiting a couple globals to dps safely can put you behind. Afterwards I would use it on cooldown if you have 75 energy or less. TotT grants you 15, and I'm leaving a 10 energy leeway to safely use the energy before capping out. There are focused attacks as well as perhaps the "Invigorating" proc to account for (if you are using Heartpierce as your MH) so I feel as though an additional 10 energy window would suffice.
If you want to evaluate which is better you would have to take the lost damage from your fellow rogue into account (the one you would otherwise be tott'ing). What you're describing is how to maximize your own dps not the overall raid dps - although it may be the same but I at least cannot see how that could be easily calculated. Also there are obviously times where even capping energy would be the right choice - add spawn at anub hc for instance.
Im pretty sure the third rule (3. Don't Let your energy cap out.) is meant to be for single target DPS. Letting your energy rise before switching to a target that needs to die quickly. I.E. adds on Anub. will most likely kill it quicker.
No, even then you do not want to let your energy cap out. In such a scenario it would be better to pool energy to 90 or so, as you'd still have a large amount of energy to start dpsing the add and won't lose DPS due to lost energy.
So, I was playing with the latest version of my Mutilate sheet this evening, and it appears that one of our favorite inanities is back. In particular, it appears that we're back in the situation where with weapons of equal DPS but unequal speed, it is potentially worthwhile to move the fast weapon to the MH and OH the slow one, while keeping Deadly Poison on the fast weapon. If you recall, this arises when the rearrangement results in a sufficient increase in poison damage to offset the loss of Mutilate damage - and that appears to be true in this case.
To put some numbers behind the observation: let's say we're in a BIS or near-BIS setup, and using [Lungbreaker] and [Rib Spreader]. A mutilate does full damage with the MH and 3/4 damage with the OH; hence, by swapping hands, we lose base damage to our Mutilate equal to 1/4 of the difference in their damage ranges. Rib Spreader has an average damage of 450.5, while Lungbreaker has an average damage of 350.5 Thus, we lose 25 base weapon damage by making the swap. This is multiplied by 1.2 (poison), 1.06 (Find Weakness), 2.13 (80% crit rate), 1.04 (physical damage debuff), and .71 (Armor), and thus translates into a damage loss of roughly 50 damage off each Mutilate (specifically, 51.26). (I'm neglecting HFB and similar effects for the moment because they apply to both damage sources equally).
So what does this do to poison damage? Well, we get the exact same number of autoattack and mutilate-triggered poison procs; the only difference is the poison proc chance on finishers. With a 1.8 speed MH using IP, we have a 1.8/1.4 * 45 = 57.86% chance to proc poison; with a 1.4 speed MH using DP, we have a 65% chance to proc poison. Thus, we are 7.14% more likely to proc poison by swapping hands; and in BIS gear, we have something like 8600 average-case AP, meaning a poison proc does, on average, something like 1841 damage; hence, for each Envenom we perform our expected damage increases by 1841 * .0714 = 131.5 damage. So as long as we do less than 131.5/51.26 = 2.56 mutilates per envenom, we gain damage by making the switch.
In practice, of course, we do more like 1.5 Mutilates per Envenom, and thus gain something like 50 damage per Envenom on the average; factoring in the rate we perform Envenoms, HFB, and other factors, we wind up with a damage difference between the two options of... 7.6 DPS, in BIS gear. Or just a bit over .05%. But hey, every little bit counts, right?
(For those wondering, I'm coming up with 14299.6 14319.5 as the best possible number in the Mutilate sheet right now. I'm going to hold off posting exact gear lists for now, as there's at least 4 fundamentally different setups that are all within a couple of tenths of a percent of each other, such that the exact details of the unknown gear - TAiaJ and anything Lich King drops - could easily skew the balance in favor of a different one. But it gives a sense of the ballpark we're talking about.)
So, I was playing with the latest version of my Mutilate sheet this evening, and it appears that one of our favorite inanities is back. In particular, it appears that we're back in the situation where with weapons of equal DPS but unequal speed, it is potentially worthwhile to move the fast weapon to the MH and OH the slow one, while keeping Deadly Poison on the fast weapon. If you recall, this arises when the rearrangement results in a sufficient increase in poison damage to offset the loss of Mutilate damage - and that appears to be true in this case.
In the the few BIS gearsets that I have attempted, I have actually seen dual-wielding Lungbreakers as the most damage, and that OH Ribspreader as a dps loss
Hmm. I was sort of assuming that Lungbreaker was going to be unique, but I guess I don't really have any evidence to support that assertion. Regardless, the larger point that I was making - namely, that fast/slow appears to edge slow/fast - is somewhat independent of the exact BIS setup.
If you want to evaluate which is better you would have to take the lost damage from your fellow rogue into account (the one you would otherwise be tott'ing). What you're describing is how to maximize your own dps not the overall raid dps - although it may be the same but I at least cannot see how that could be easily calculated. Also there are obviously times where even capping energy would be the right choice - add spawn at anub hc for instance.
I agree with you in terms of the energy capping in situations where we have to switch targets but I was addressing the scenario in a Saurfang 25Man encounter where we are pretty much sitting on the boss from start to finish. Also, in terms addressing the dps loss from your TotT target due to "intelligent" use of the 2piece benefit, I can see how this is a valid point but I was under the impression that we were talking about your personal DPS, or what would appear next to your name in the recount dmg meters.
However, even taking your TotT target's loss of additional dps into consideration, using TotT on cd and over-capping yourself in certain situations would almost make this amazing 2 piece bonus a complete waste. I don't know about any of you guys but I'm not getting the 2 piece asap just so I can feel better about myself when I TotT someone to assist their DPS.
@ Aldriana: I find that very interesting and would love to see the proposed BiS setup once Arthas loot tables have been uncovered. Also, in regards to the comment Fast/Fast dagger setup. I also found similar results of dual 1.4 speed daggers trumping any combination of Slow and Fast daggers.
XcyteZ, you misinterpreted what Aldriana said. He is saying fast/slow trumps slow/fast near BiS stats. Holding dagger stats constant slow/fast will always outperform fast/fast both in terms of mutilate damage and chance to proc IP on mutilate and envenom.
Aldriana, I also want to add that not all envenoms are performed when previous envenom buff is up. If envenom buff is not up, then the difference between 1.8-speed IP proc and DP proc chance is 50%-38.6%=11.4%, i.e. even larger than during envenom, so it's even easier for fast/slow to pull ahead. On the other hand, AP multiplier of a mutilate is 2.8 times higher than that of instant poison, so during AP procs the gap between the two setups will be closing.
Actually - unless it's changed - all envenoms *are* performed with the envenom buff up. Last I tested - which was back in 3.1 when we had the 100% DP proc rate with Master Poisoner and Improved Poisons - I tested and concluded that the poison proc from an envenom checks proc chance/rate *after* the envenom buff for that attack is applied - that is, the chance to proc poison off an envenom is boosted by the envenom itself, regardless of whether you still have buff left over from the last one. I didn't save the testing, sadly, but suffice it to say I did enough of it to conclude that the poison proc chance off an envenom was definitely not 40% and very likely 100%, which doesn't seem to allow too many alternative explanations.
Actually - unless it's changed - all envenoms *are* performed with the envenom buff up. Last I tested - which was back in 3.1 when we had the 100% DP proc rate with Master Poisoner and Improved Poisons - I tested and concluded that the poison proc from an envenom checks proc chance/rate *after* the envenom buff for that attack is applied - that is, the chance to proc poison off an envenom is boosted by the envenom itself, regardless of whether you still have buff left over from the last one. I didn't save the testing, sadly, but suffice it to say I did enough of it to conclude that the poison proc chance off an envenom was definitely not 40% and very likely 100%, which doesn't seem to allow too many alternative explanations.
If that is true then Envenom 'clipping' at <.5 seconds has been completely pointless outside of maximizing uptime. Also, I'm assuming those numbers are for 51/18/2, as there is a substantial difference in Mutilate damage for 51/13/7 when you swap dagger speeds (roughly 14-15% of your damage is Mutilate, ~8% being MH). It's also important to note that in practice time on target will affect those numbers. More down time in say a fight such as Marrowgar will skew results toward a small increase in overall Mutilate damage (sometimes <1%) but still greater than .05% when you factor in the changes to the weapon speeds.
Target changes also typically hurt overall poison output, which kind of puts a dent in the IP procs from 5 stacks DP. I'm sure it's viable with particular DPS differences in daggers (i.e. fast significantly > slow), but in general slow/fast ip/dp is probably going to come out on top during actual play.
12/29/09, 2:07 PM
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