• Aldriana

It's also worth noting that the Instant Poison gain and Deadly Poison loss due to Envenom are significant contributions to it's damage so must be included in any assessment of finisher value.

 

Thargood

An interesting side effect of the 3+ cycle is that there are significantly fewer mutilates, probably in the ballpark of about 66% as many mutilates as normal (1 per finisher instead of about 1.5 per, an inexact guess). Mutilate's DPE is much lower than envenom. So, even though a 3.5 envenom has less DPE than a 4.5 envenom it is still a lot more DPE than mutilate, but we're doing a lot fewer mutilates, resulting in a total DPE that isn't actually much lower at all.

 

◊ chalon

That's a good point. So if you add in the Mutilates and still want it to be a function of AP, the equation starts to get quite a few terms . I did some rough estimates though, which seemed to suggest that the entire "Envenom Segment" of a 4+ cycle was about ~1.2x more efficient than the "Envenom Segment" in the 3+ cycle.

Right. In order to get a completely accurate picture we have to factor in a lot of other things as well. Which starts to cry spreadsheet (no, I can't do it!). So just looking at the efficiency of the instant Envenom damage in a vaccuum isn't useful in and of itself. But it's at least a particular data point to look at.

That's not really true. The number of Mutilates will only be slightly lower in a 3+ cycle, because even though you are doing less per cycle segment, there are more cycle segments in the fight. The only reduction in Mutilates will be a result of less energy from Relentless Strikes.

 

ieatpaperbag

I put together a rough spreadsheet to slightly better estimate the DPE of 3+ vs 4+ Envenoms, factoring in Mutilates, extra Instant Poison procs, Deadly Poison lost ticks (very poorly, I assumed before the envenom that the stack was 5 and that after one tick the stack resumed to 5). I also incorporated Ruthlessness and Seal Fate instead of assuming 3.5 and 4.5 combo points and found the average DPE for 3+ to be 74.90 and 80.63 for 4+ using 4000AP, 30% Crit, and 12% Haste. I am not great with spreadsheets so this could be very useless, I am also not sure where I could post this if anyone wanted to download it.

 

ravenhldt

With the 4pcT8 bonus, and the discussion in this thread about a 3+ envenom being higher DPE than mutilate...

I've been really wondering if things would merit a 3+n/4+r/(3+n) type of cycle. It'd be:
- Stable SnD cycles
- Stronger ruptures
- More envenoms as opposed to mutilates

Edit: cycle formatting

 

Deichsler

I noticed that you use the SR in your mainhand and WD in your off:
Is it therefore safe to assume that, with the introduction of the PPM system, it's back to slow/fast or even slow/slow?

 

saedo

Basically speed matters less. Quality of dagger matters more. But, for DP restacking, a faster OH has more of a benefit. Specific example of WD being better than SR in the OH. For other daggers, wait for a spreadsheet to come out for real analysis.

 

◊ chalon

Well, the PPM system only applies to Instant and Wound Poison. All other poisons still use the old system.

 

songster

The best models we currently have are as follows:

1) IP should continue to go on the mainhand, DP on the offhand. This is to take advantage of extra IP procs from Rupture/Envenom finishers.

2) In the mainhand, there is a moderate preference for slow speed weapons, which will almost certainly be outweighed by item level, stat allocation etc.

3a) In the offhand, fast weapons are strongly favoured due to the need to restack DP, and increased FA procs. The DP restacking factor is reduced but not eliminated by the changes to Master Poisoner. This is a VERY STRONG preference for a fast offhand, such that (e.g.) Webbed Death is a better offhand than Sinister Revenge, despite being a tier lower in base DPS and stats

3b) Even if they alter game mechanics such that DP does not get removed by Envenom (i.e. there is no need to ever restack it), then there is still a moderate preference for a fast weapon in the offhand to get increased FA procs. However, in this latter case, item level and stat allocation would probably outweigh the weapon speed factor.

 

songster

Actually, that strikes me as being quite a powerful way of looking at Mutilate theorycrafting. Rather than trying to model the whole cycle, which is (or at least can be) dynamic and unpredictable, what we can do is model the individual (builder+finisher) segments and compare their DPE. Then, once we have a baseline listing of the DPE values for a 3+n segment, a 4+n segment, an mmR segment (etc.) we can start looking at the variations on that. How is the DPE of an Envenom segment affected if you "clip" the Envenom buff by performing another Envenom too soon afterwards? How is the DPE of a Rupture segment affected if you refresh too early and lose the final tick?

Each cycle segment ends up with a given cost, a given "actual" duration (how long it takes to perform the moves themselves), and a given "extended" duration (how long it takes to deal its damage afterwards). The "extended" duration covers the Rupture dot and the Envenom buff: performing the same finisher again before the extended duration has elapsed will effectively reduce the DPE of the preceding cycle.

 

Mavanas

While my spreadsheet does not allow to force fixed action queues, it can calculate DPS of various cycles of the form 4+n/4+r/(4+n). I had to modify it slightly to allow for low envenom cycles, here is the latest version: Rogue Simulation 3.0.9a.

In BiS items, with all buffs except for Heroic Presence and Savage Combat, without Murder, I get the following DPS estimates:

5+n/5+r/(5+n) - 5398 dps
4+n/5+r/(4+n) - 5427 dps
4+n/4+r/(4+n) - 5422 dps
3+n/4+r/(3+n) - 5294 dps
3+n/3+r/(3+n) - 5293 dps

So 3+n/3+r/(3+n) is a 2.4% dps decrease compared to 4+n/4+r/(4+n). You can actually obtain a slight dps increase over 4+n/4+r/(4+n) if you set an additional requirement to have at least 4 stacks of DP before using envenom (5438 dps).

 

songster

Isn't this one a fixed cycle in practice, in that there's never the need to put in a second 5n (and in fact doing so will drop S'n'D) ?

 

Mavanas

Eyeballing the resulting sequence, it in fact appears that there is not enough time (energy regen) to put in a second envenom. It's not something that I want to brute force in the simulation, but it's rather what comes out from the requirements to keep SND and rupture up and not use envenom and rupture till you get 5 combo points.

To avoid confusion, you can think about that cycle as 5n/5r.

 

Edrielle

Something I've started testing recently based on my recount, where rupture was way below my poison damage, as well as envenom (having the T7 bonus).

What I did effectively was stop using rupture, and envenom with 4+ CP and an appropriate amount of DP on the target (equal to the number of CP), using envenom every time I had this (so 4+ CP and appropriate DP stacks), the energy to do it and the envenom buff wasn't already up. I've not been able to test it enough to compare the DPS well enough, but in Sartharion (2Drakes, it was late in the week and we also still needed KT and Malygos) I turned out first on damage done on Recount. Now I'm obviously going to look into the viability of this further but has this tactic been considered yet? Or am I talking nonsense here and missing a vital flaw?

 

◊ chalon

Rupture w/ the Rupture Glyph is higher DPE than an Envenom, even taking into account the affect on poison damage. There was some discussion regarding 3.1 that if you replaced a Rupture Glyph w/ an Envenom Glyph whether or not it would be worthwhile to drop Rupture, but that point is moot since the Envenom Glyph was taken out. Especially with 4-piece T8 being such a big boost to Rupture, I don't think dropping it from your cycle is beneficial.

It's not uncommon to be #1 on Sartharion post-FoK CD removal. I've been top a few times myself...FoK + almost everything being Murderable is a pretty big boost to Mutilate damage.

 

Grunge

Envenom Glyph is emulated via MP though.
And when comparing Envenom and Rupture DPE, one needs to account for increased IP procs, which I haven't seen done yet.

Although T8 4pc will probably invalidate this, but until we have that it might be a option.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

◊ chalon

It's true that MP gives you almost the effect of the Envenom Glyph (though not quite). However, the fact that it no longer is in glyph form means it frees up a spot to use the Rupture Glyph again, which is at least a 25% increase on your Rupture DPE. So if you assume the glyph + Blood Splatter, it already is well ahead of Envenom + IP procs. The 4pc T8 bonus will only increase that gap.

 

Furazoio

Very interesting

I´ve tryed MNMNMR cycle instead the normal cycle. In my first tests damage are really close from normal cycle and i cant consider it as increase damage output.

After it i decided to changing a bit Assassination Build and them i really see the increase damage output from short cycles.

With just 4 points in cut of chase, N finish moves grants 80% chances to refresh SnD. In this kind of cycle we have 2 or even 3 N... So our probability to not refresh SnD in short cycles will be between 0,8% to 4%. In fact i havent see any trouble refreshing SnD

Another question that i´ve been thinking about is precision talent. New intemization should let all assassination rogues over poison hit cap . So why use it? Why not use 52 / 5 / 13 + 1. Precision is a way down in EP measure when assassination reach poison cap, but i just see a linear EP graph about it no matter how much hit you have

 

lopht

My concerns about the said cycle/spec are that:

1 - It will be a pain to refresh rupture as it is: a single proc (Berserker, DMC:Greatness, Mirror of Truth and etc.) may mess with the rotation turning it into a "mutilate and then envenom" spam.

2 - The RNG. I can see those unlucky four Envenoms without a single CTTC proc and the need to refresh SnD.


About the EP of Precision, I see it as a "good filler" as your gear improves and it also gives the flexibility by allowing us to pick gear with less hit and with other useful stats (say expertise or anything that you lack of).

To be honest I don't know the exact EP values for Precision but I believe the points in combat are worth it because we have access to CQC, Imp SnD and Precision where the only DPS-increasing in the 2nd and 3rd tiers of subtetly is Serrated Blades.

 

ieatpaperbag

My concern is the same as lopht, bad RNG will wreck your rotation if SnD falls off. Further there isn't a vastly superior place to place that extra talent point.

I left 2 points in precision and put this 3.1 51/7/13 build into Mavanas's 3.1 simulator (boss armor isn't updated yet) with 271 hit gear and got about a 65 dps decrease compared to this 5/5 precision build. I imagine that the first build will surpass the latter with the 4pc t8 bonus. I did try moving those 2 points from precisions into Turn the Tables but kept falling about another 35 dps behind but at this point I have a 2.3% chance to miss with poisons. I think it will be something to consider depending on how Ulduar gear is itemized.

 

Edrielle

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but what is DPE exactly? Because from what I see, Rupture is a (considerably) smaller part of my damage when compared to envenom/IP/DP. So replacing it with envenoming should boost that damage up even further, in my reasoning. Then what I'm wanting to test is if that extra envenom/poison damage will compromise the loss of rupture damage and obviously hopefully do even more damage. Another advantage of this is that it's easier to keep up HfB/SnD like this. Obviously that shouldn't be an issue or really have to be a reason to change your cycles (and possibly nerf your DPS even more than when fighting so that HfB/SnD might drop), but it's a helpful component.

I'll keep testing, and hopefully people are willing to imput more because I'm hardly a hero at theorycrafting compared to most people here. I thought it was an interesting idea, if only until 3,1 and T8.

 

Almehym

DPE stands for Damage per Energy. Rupture may be a smaller portion of your damage, but you're spending much more energy on envenom, plus it costs only 25 energy to Envenom's 35.

Easier to keep up SnD/HfB is a relative issue. With the gear you get by late T7/early T8, your stats should be high enough to run very stable cycles consistently with 100% SnD uptime, and with a one minute duration HfB, that should also be a nonissue.

 

Edrielle

Fair point, thanks for the enlightenment (: but - sorry to argue again - wouldn't more envenoms (more because you'll not just use them when energy is pooled and SnD/Rupture are up with enough time left on the duration, but on every time you have energy and HfB is up long enough still) result in more overall damage, even if rupture has more DPE?
(I'm not saying DPS on purpose because when I raided as mutilate in TBC (I've always hated combat) I made ~900 DPS and outdamaged warlocks with 1,4K.)

And I just got - finally - the Chestguard of the Recluse, so I should have less issues with missing finishers. Following the normal mutilate cycle, one would renew SnD and HfB at the latest possible moment. Low expertise (I even gemmed for it, and refused to replace my Trollwoven Girdle with Belt of the Tortured for a long time) isn't helping to succesfully do that.
So what're the conclusions (for now) towards the effeciency of the other cycles, aside from the normal one? In a way I can't imagine the others being better myself but I have yet to test them in realtime.

Will keep a close eye on this thread and imput where I can, though I overall don't compare to most of the posters here when it comes to theoretical knowledge.

Succesfully mutilating since pre-3,0.

 

◊ chalon

No, the idea is that Rupture is more efficient damage than Envenom (even taking into account poison procs and such). Thus it would follow that you would want to, whenever possible, perform the finisher that's more efficient damage.

 

Ticia

No, because energy is directly proportional to time, so DPE for all intents and purposes equals DPS. If you are doing more DPS, for a specific fight length, you will do more damage. Therefore, the finisher with the most DPE will be the finisher that will bring you the highest overall damage.

The only reason we use Envenom at all is that Rupture takes time to do it's damage, and if you overwrite it, you lose DPE, so we turn to the next best finisher while we wait for a chance to use Rupture again.