ieatpaperbag

Another simple way to put it if it makes it more understandable is that for a given fight, you in short have a finite amount of energy to spend (what you start with, normal energy ticks, and talents-Relentless Strikes, Focused Attacks, Combat Potency). Because you have limited energy to spend, you want to spend it as efficiently as possible (get the most bang out of your buck) to generate the most damage for this amount of energy by using attacks that have high DPE (not necessarily the finisher that just hits the hardest since they cost a different amount of energy).

Additionally, if you just use envenom a lot your Deadly Poison stack will be smaller on average giving smaller Envenoms and smaller Deadly Poison ticks.

 

jorysaywut

While you're probably right about smaller DP stacks, I think it's been proven already that it doesn't really matter how many stacks of poison there are for your envenoms. It's about the combo points.

 

ares650

Hello All!!!
I am new to Mutilate Spec and its Cycles, so please work with me.
I have a few questions to ask;

1) In your "Normal" 4+r/4+n/(4+n) cycling, what is this cycle? I made out that your mNmR is (Mutilate / Rupture / Mutilate / Envenom), correct?

2) Working mNmR, do you wait for 4cp to do your S'n'D or that is also 2cp? Cause then the cycle would look like (Garrote, Mutilate, S'n'D, Mutilate, Rupture, Mutilate, Envenom)? And by the the looks of it never use Backstab or Shiv to apply more poisons.

3) Do you guys use Tricks of the trade?

4) Do you guys put your cycles into macro's? If so can you post an ex. of yours?

Thanks

 

Tinwhisker

This thread is about experimenting with new cycles for various reasons, you're not going to find what you're looking for here.

I suggest you start with http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/ and then ask any and all questions in Rogue: Simple Questions/Simple Answers.

And on a side note, never shiv and don't bother trying to put your rotation into a macro. Trying to macro your DPS is the fastest route to failure.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Jo

...unless Dedmonwakeen's Simulationcraft update bears out Chalon's initial findings that fixed cycles do 95-98% as much damage as variable cycles, in which case 'macroing your dps' may be the fastest route to getting new encounters on farm.

 

Tinwhisker

That is highly reliant on having no dodges and a host of other things.

I can imagine scenarios where players are mashing their macro (stuck on a finisher) with no combo points because of a dodged CP builder. To combat this you then have all the keys you'd normally have bound anyway as well as the macro. In the end, you're watching all the same things anyway (combo points, etc) but you've now got extra keys and are more prone to "autopilot" and lose DPS due to something like a dodge.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Ozzmar

Not that I'm ever in favor of macroing the whole gaming experience, but just for argument's sake...

If you were Expertise capped, would this become a non-issue?

 

Tinwhisker

Maybe, but if that sort of play becomes popular enough I see Blizzard squashing it pretty handily to prevent that.

The whole point being that macros are fine, lots of classes use them for all sorts of things. In the case of rogues though, they generally don't work out when used for a DPS rotation because parts of the macro assume certain outcomes of other parts of the macro (CP builders -> finishers). When these outcomes aren't met, the macro fails. This is unlike a class like say, a hunter, where the next shot is never dependent on the outcome of the last.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

songster

I knew I should never have mentioned macros. My whole point was that it shouldn't be macroable. That said, it does currently look depressingly like you would lose surprisingly little from shifting to a fixed cycle. Whether that's a deficiency in the game or in our simulation tools is another question.

In a way, I hope it does turn out to be macro-able, since that would hopefully push Blizzard into "squashing it pretty handily" - i.e. giving us cycles where paying attention to what you're doing results in more than a 3-5% gain.

 

Tinwhisker

I'm reminded of TBC Combat where this was the case (poster child for zero difference between skilled and unskilled play). Blizzard has taken some good steps to get us away from that but as long as PvE damage is moved away from actively used specials and into passive damage like white/poisons/etc I don't see us getting too far from that.

In fact, the work already done in this thread speaks volumes about the playstyle of rogues. That is to say, enough of our damage is passive that it really doesn't matter what you do with your energy; as long as you're doing something, your DPS may be within the margin of error of a top player.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

Dontmindme

I don't think minor rotation differences have ever resulted in that big of a difference. I think its similar for other classes. In BC, the difference between 3s/5r and 5s/5r was also pretty negligle. The real question is why are there so many players of a class that just can't produce? The answer is they are missing something.

I don't see a problem with it and here's why...
First, one needs to spec into a suitable talent spec, avoiding the McGuffin talents and not skipping the bread and butter. Second is gear where you need to be able to prioritize based on a large number of stats. Third, you need to use the correct skills in conjunction with a given spec. Fourth, you maintain a rotation using these talents through various disruptions. Fifth, you must maximize on target time (from behind) while still avoiding fires and shadow fissures. Sixth, you must live to the end, silly avoidable deaths destroy your DPS.

There is a lot that goes into playing your toon well and quite frankly, losing 3-5% of one's overall DPS from just screwing up your special rotation, seems like a lot to me, and its why as players who spend all the time and effort to talent and gear correctly, none of us are willing to give up 3-5% without a fight. Frankly, I'm happy that most of the talent of playing the class is about positioning correctly and avoiding the pitfalls (assuming you count talents and gearing simple but with pages of discussion on this forum it's apparently not). Furthermore, if one's DPS got destroyed with inferior rotations, then your damage would be destroyed every time you are forced off-target or had your rotation disrupted due to environmental factors. Or, God forbid, the only way to be a "top" player is to live within a mile of the server and have 10 ping. Rotations inherently must be fairly forgiving.

I've seen my share of bad rogues. They often have bad gear choices like Epics with worse stats than quest greens or screwed up talents like combat rogues with both Quick Recovery and Surprise Attacks (at the same time). Or people who don't gem and enchant their gear or people who still think Eviscerate is better than Rupture because it hits for big numbers. Or people who can't attack the target with all the debuffs on it. We also are talking about those who can't get out of shadow fissures or fires.

I also don't think that DPS should be so gimmicky so one "needs" to pop two specific trinkets during a Heroism to gain 1000 DPS because then one has to have those trinkets or they are well behind. So in short, I'm happy that you get more DPS from all these other factors than a relatively minor rotation difference because specific rotation to the level of x number of combo points before finishing is just one of very many factors that makes up your overall DPS.

 

songster

By far the biggest variables between good rogues and bad ones are:

1) Staying alive
2) Time on target
3) Slice'n'Dice uptime

When discussing talent trees, the first two of those don't really enter the equation: while (some) talents confer (some) survivability in PvP situations, raiding survivability boils down to Not Standing in Fire. Similarly, none of our targets really affect time on target, except Shadowstep in very rare cases.

Once the staying alive and hitting the boss part is taken care of, the remaining issue is S'n'D uptime. This is actually where I begin to worry about Mutilate more than other builds, because maintaining S'n'D is pretty much a non-issue. No matter how badly you screw up the optimal cycle, so long as you're using finishers at all, S'n'D will stay up. We only have three damaging finishers, Rupture can't be spammed and the other two both trigger CttC.

 

doctorhay53

I have a rotation question:

Is there a point in the gearing up process (i.e. an AP value) where envenom suddenly overtakes eviscerate as a finisher? I'm assuming there is a point where your AP value makes it more profitable DPS-wise to have the envenom buff up.

The reason I'm asking is that at this point, all of my personal testing indicates to me that all of my cycles (I use different 'long fight' and 'short fight' cycles) benefit more from eviscerate than they do from envenom.
Here is my armory: Taldager - Garrosh

The rotations I have tested to be the best for my current setup are:

Long fight: m / s / 4 + (e or n) / [4 + r / 4 + (e or n)] with [] indicating repeated portions for the full fight. Also, I usually work HFB in right after an (e or n)

short fight: (less than 3 targets so that FOK is not viable as a DPS option, trash fights essentially)
m / s / [m / (e or n)], [] indicating repeated portion of the cycle.

Cycle reasoning:
My long cycle is intended to of course never drop SnD, and it does a good job of maximizing rupture uptime. By using HFB shortly after (e or n), I assure that I never accidentally drop it. Currently I am wasting energy by using HFB too early, but I find that if I try to use it near the rupture portion of my cycle, I end up losing SnD or HFB. I typically pool ~ 60 energy, or if I get lucky with CP procs I will mutilate to 5+ even if it wastes CP.

The short cycle works on the assumption that rupture will not be on the target long enough to be viable as a damage dealer. It maintains 100% SnD uptime very easily, but 'wastes' CP on refreshing SnD when it still has a long duration remaining.

My tests showed that in a 30 second fight, using eviscerate instead of envenom resulted in 10,000 more damage on average. The long fight results show a minimal difference in overall damage. This seems to be reasonable in theory as well: a 4 + point eviscerate, especially if it crits (buffed by a glyph), is a much more effective 'short duration' dps increaser than envenom. i.e. it is much better for burst damage. In a long fight, the increased poison procs balance out this bonus to eviscerate.

So to sum up, I really have two questions:
1) Is there a point when envenom surpasses eviscerate?
and, 2) Am I simply doing something wrong to decrease envenoms effectiveness? Everything I read says 'envenom over eviscerate' but my current tests show otherwise for my rotations.

Any comment unrelated to my specific questions but related to improving my damage capabilities are highly welcomed.

 

songster

For very short fights, yes you should probably use dual IP and eviscerate. Your DP won't have time to stack for an Envenom, and your Rupture / DP won't have time to tick either. On the other hand, how many 30 second fights are actually of any interest whatsoever from a theorycraft perspective?

The fact that you see little difference between Envenom / Eviscerate on a longer fight is almost certainly because your hit rating is extremely low - well below the poison cap.

 

doctorhay53

Sorry, I am still relatively new to the the 'dps chase.' To me, the short fight theories are still very important.

I hadn't considered that hit was causing the difference between envenom / eviscerate, but that makes sense. Thanks for the comments.

 

Ozzmar

Until 3.1 hits, you'd probably also see better results from having your LPC in your main hand, despite it being slightly lower overall DPS. Instant Poison does TONS of damage once you have the hit cap attained, way more than Mutilate itself. Instant Poison will proc off of your finishers as well, because it counts as a main hand hit.

Here's a WWS from our KT kill last night to show you what I mean:

Wow Web Stats

So, between raising your hit rating, and getting a faster dagger in your main hand, I think you'd likely see Envenom become superior on longer fights.

 

Grunge

Actually from what I've seen using infinite, 300 and 120 to compare dps over different times, at least with BiS IIV is superior in all cases.

Also I'd suggest simply picking up a 2nd LPC and go IIV until 3.1
In IIV, LPC is 2nd best dagger at least with BiS.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

amele

'All cases' - assuming someone else is providing poison for you; or are you seeing IIV overtake IDN even in situations where that means the boss isn't poisoned? I was under the impression that IIV needed a poison-bot to be better but your wording has me wondering if you're seeing something different now.

 

Grunge

I guess my wording was a bit inaccurate, since I'm used to the fact that if you're the only rogue in the raid you should be combat anyway.
Hence if you're mutilate, a combat rogue is already providing Wound.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

doctorhay53

I'm having trouble getting my hit up at this point. I'm only around 3~4%. Should I socket everything I have with Hit regardless of socket color? My goal is the soft cap at 8%? Or just keep socketing agi and AP until i get better gear and then worry about hit?

I'll do some testing tonight with the LPC, and maybe see about getting another one to try out IIV. I'm worried that my hit is way too low though.

Also the reason I'm mutilate instead of combat even though I'm usually the only rogue is gear; I haven't been able to find a good enough OH sword that I like to overtake my mutilate DPS. I did get 'Greed' as a MH fist weapon, so I just need to find a sword. No good ones have been listed on AH, and I have yet to get a drop.

 

Tinwhisker

All PvE specs take 5/5 Precision for 5% hit. Add that to the 3%+ you have from gear and you're above 8% already.

That said, trust the spreadsheet. Hit is a powerful stat when you have very little of it but it's never so powerful as to immediately trump Agi or AP once past the specials cap.

Edit to say that this has gone way off topic. If you have more question please move them to QA thread.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

ieatpaperbag

Taking this from the pocket guide thread, so read there for more detail. With 99 hit rating you're between the yellow hit cap and the poison hit cap which is where hit is estimated to have a EP value of 2.2 compared to agility which has about 2.0. So for example a Rigid Autumn’s Glow (16 hit rating * 2.2 = 35.2 EP) would have a higher EP value then a Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 agi * 2.0 = 32). I think you could afford to regem the pants you have in your armory to two hit gems, the socket bonus is stam which I think you can do without. I realize that the pocket guild EP values are approximations, though I think it's safe to say hit gems will yield you more overall dps then agi or ap gems will until you reach the poison hit cap.

edit: Tinwhisker beat me to it

 

doctorhay53

Thanks, my original question was about envenom versus eviscerate as the SnD refresher in my mutilate cycle (cycle 'b' from the initial post in the thread), so to elaborate on that and bring the thread back to the mutilate cycle topic: the reason eviscerate is working better for me seems to be that I am not poison hit capped, so the envenom buff is not trumping the base damage increase for eviscerate over envenom. Thanks for helping me figure out why the cycles listed in the initial post were not ideal for me.

 

Acaelus

It it pretty common for fully or nearly BiS geared mutilate rogues to be expertise capped? Some of the comments here lead me to believe that some of them are not, but that seems that would be counter-intuitive to trying to create a fixed or near-fixed cycle because of the randomness of dodges if you are not expertise capped.

Do you strictly follow EP cost spreadsheets once you reach a certain point, or do you want to expertise cap no matter what so you don't have to take points out of murder into QR or just deal with the random energy loss? Or similar to hit is there a certain point where putting more into expertise is less and less productive?

 

songster

It's a personal choice. The sheet does not model the effects of cycle drops due to dodges, so the EP values for expertise are a lower bound, not an exact value. If you find you can DPS well and don't have cycle problems even when gemming AP/Agi, then go for it. Personally I always gem for the expertise cap for peace of mind. It's worth noting that so long as you have some appropriate gem of appropriate quality in your gear, the difference between gemming for one stat or another is well within the limits of random error.