@ green
That was referring to the 4p t10 bonus if capping becomes a problem with the proc.
@siralop
Bloodlust/Heroism affects your IP procs so you want the envenom buff up the whole time if possible so you don't want to clip envenoms at all. I would also think that during BL 3+ envenoms would be better than 4+ to maximize the buff uptime, though some testing could still be done to argue otherwise
You should not clip envenoms unless you are risking capping on energy. Avoiding capping energy is more important than overwriting envenom buff, whether it is during bloodlust or not. To reduce the risk of capping energy, pool less energy or do not pool at all, then most of the time you can wait out the full duration of the envenom buff before you have to land another.
Why exactly is it not favorable to clip the Envenom (by clip I mean refreshing it just as the buff wears off), considering it's a free IP poison proc if it registers with the buff active? I mean, one IP proc isn't a significant part of your DPS, but what exactly is lost if you clip it? Numbers would be greatly appreciated my friend.
is it? Is there a that precise definition of clipping?
When i have sufficient energy, I envenom at -0.2 sec to get the additionnal proc chance on finisher...
I don't see how having a precise definition of clipping is an issue. It's a very simple concept. If you still have the Envenom buff when you Envenom, you clipped it. If you don't have the Envenom buff when you Envenom, you didn't clip it. Very simple.
Why exactly is it not favorable to clip the Envenom (by clip I mean refreshing it just as the buff wears off), considering it's a free IP poison proc if it registers with the buff active? I mean, one IP proc isn't a significant part of your DPS, but what exactly is lost if you clip it? Numbers would be greatly appreciated my friend.
That's actually an interesting point.
Clipping envenoms isn't a direct dps loss like clipping say, rupture, is. The point of not clipping envenoms obviously is to maximise it's uptime since, given the nature of mutilate, envenom buff uptime is non-trivially < 100%. However, you're quite right to suggest that envenoming with the buff increases the chances that the envenom itself will proc IP. The question then is whether that potential proc is greater than any potential proc that a MH (or OH with swapping) swing that might occur in the < 1 second that you would typically be forced to clip the buff.
EDIT: (Plus the (trivial) uptime loss that would result, and any potential swings that might occcur in that uptime etc).
I do not understand your earlier post then.
You say refreshing is different from clipping and that clipping occurs if casting envenom while still having 1sec left (or more I assume) on your current envenom buff. So I assume that between 0.0001 and 1 second it is called refreshing... am I right?
Ultimately one should always be casting envenom exactly at the threshold of the envenom buff fading away right? Yet this STILL is clipping since you canibalize an existing buff with the exact same one?
Finally you say that clipping is bad, that refreshing is not the same as clipping and finally that wherever you envenom while still being under it's buff you are clipping.
Maybe you could provide me with a clear explanation of whether clipping/refreshing/whatever you call it is an issue and whether there are differences between those different concepts.
@Omniwank
The way I see it, casting envenom while still having the buff triggers two effects:
- dps gain: you get an extra proc chance on the finisher
- dps loss: you actually loose total evenom buff uptime.
Both of these are linear functions (dps gain is in fact positive constant) so there is a moment when the dps gain offsets the dps loss. The real question is: Is this moment noticeably different from 0 or not? If not, then clipping should be avoided beceause of the high risk of canibalizing too much of the buff uptime. And if it is say 0.25 seconds before the buff fades out, it might be actually interesting to squeeze the next envenom in this quarter of a second.
@Ikutaba
I do not understand your earlier post then.
You say refreshing is different from clipping and that clipping occurs if casting envenom while still having 1sec left (or more I assume) on your current envenom buff. So I assume that between 0.0001 and 1 second it is called refreshing... am I right?
Ultimately one should always be casting envenom exactly at the threshold of the envenom buff fading away right? Yet this STILL is clipping since you canibalize an existing buff with the exact same one?
Finally you say that clipping is bad, that refreshing is not the same as clipping and finally that wherever you envenom while still being under it's buff you are clipping.
Maybe you could provide me with a clear explanation of whether clipping/refreshing/whatever you call it is an issue and whether there are differences between those different concepts.
Okay, so, I'll try to explain this better.
If you're Envenoming while you still have the buff, no matter the duration .1sec to 1sec to 4secs, you're clipping Envenom. Now, there may be some merit to clipping at less than 1sec, if you aren't going to have a MH swing in that timeframe, because the Envenom you are casting will have a higher chance to proc your MH poison. Generally, most people aren't going to be able to keep track of their swing timer, Envenom buff, etc. and pay attention to fight mechanics at the same time. Also, clipping isn't necessarily bad, on burst damage, like say Jaraxxus portals, you should Envenom if the portal isn't going to last longer than your current Envenom buff.
So, in some circumstances, clipping is okay, but in general, I would not cast Envenom until my current buff has run out.
Thank you for your explanation Ikutaba. I did forgot about a potential MH swing in that timeframe.
Is there an addon that allows me to view the remaining time to the next white hit with the MH?
Quartz has a swing timer function that is pretty self intuitive. Like mentioned before though, at some point you're just looking at too many timers and aren't keeping enough of an active eye on the raid mechanics. That being said I do admire your desire to squeeze out every drop of dps you can gather!
If you do go down this path, one suggestion is to set the swing timer as a forth of the length of your envenom timer (assuming you use a bar for that) so that the seconds to centimeter ratio is the same. That should allow you to make quick decisions more easily instead of running fractions in your head. This is obviously imperfect with a varying envenom duration and swing timer, but it might help you out.
Great stuff, thank you. I am already used to envenom (if possible) at something close to 0.1-0.2 seconds left on envenom buff but then in 20% cases, I was canibalizing a incoming white hit. I will try to setup Quartz just like you said.
While we have been dragging this discussion forever and we are really talking about 5 dps impact here, I will still add that the white hit that is due around the time the first envenom runs out has nothing to do with your choice here. Whether you land another envenom 0.1 seconds before previous one is over or you wait 0.1 sec longer, it will not matter for a white swing due now. Depending on its timing, the white swing will either be affected by previous envenom or a new one. Where it can make a difference is if you pushed your envenom 0.1 sec sooner to give it a higher IP application rate and then a white swing occured within 0.1 seconds after the second envenom buff was over and thus it was not done under effect of the envenom. So quartz is not going to help you directly. However, you can do the math and say your second envenom has 4 combo points, so you know it will be over 5 seconds later. Then you can use quartz to determine that there will be swing due in 5.05 seconds, so you know you will be "cannibalizing" your IP proc from white swing at the end.
As you can see, noone is going to do this analysis in real time especially because it's a matter of trivial dps increase if any. So basically, if you are micromanaging your dps, you should land your next envenom just before the previous one runs out, IF doing so does not cause you cap on energy. Capping on energy is going to cause you a lot more dps lost than you will ever gain by giving your envenom a higher IP application rate.
I really don't know why this hasn't been brought up already but I think there is some confusion as far as when/if to use 3+ envenoms over 4+. Mav and many others have pointed out that over a sustained period, 4+ is superior. What hasn't been brought up is that over short periods, 3+ pulls ahead. The shorter the fight, the better it is. This means that there is a threshold between 3+ and 4+ that people should be aware of. This is completely dependent on your gear/buffs and is quite easy to find with a spreadsheet. Mine, for example, is about 90 sec. This means that if a fight is likely to last under 90 sec, 3+ envenoms will pull ahead of 4+. If it's longer than 90 sec, then go with 4+. This is something to keep in mind if your fighting trash/adds or a sustained zerg on the boss.
First of all, of course you are right Mavanas, I don't know what was I thinking.
Then, Spraynard, 90 seconds seems a little odd to me. Could you provide some intuition please? It is sure that for such dps burst as portals on Jaraxus, it might be interesting to chain 3+ evenoms, but this phase is only something like 10 seconds long. I was thinking that 3+ or 4+ decision should depend on the remaining time of a fight, at the very end it is useless to throw in a 5 cp envenom beceause you will just waste the envenom buff uptime if the boss dies with you still having 2-3 secondes on it. Yet, 90 seconds? I do not understand the logic behind it.
at the very end it is useless to throw in a 5 cp envenom beceause you will just waste the envenom buff uptime if the boss dies with you still having 2-3 secondes on it.
This doesn't directly pertain to your question, but I thought I would point it out anyway. If you are at the end of a fight, with the envenom buff running and the boss will die within a couple of seconds, why not throw in a 5cp envenom? Sure, part of the subsequent envenom buff will be wasted, but does that matter? You're not going to get another envenom in (in current gear) and a 5cp envenom does more damage than a 3cp envenom...
I'm still running a standard 51\13\7 (WITH Rupt Glyph) but with Weapon Swap. I noticed a dps increase with weapon swap, but I'm still wondering if it is worth going for a rupturless cylce.
From all the readings I had around here plus a rough math on the combat logs I was persuaded to go rupturless with a 51\18\2 (so no Blood Spatter nor Rupt Glyph, no RS) plus AP gemming.
But after various attempts on spreadsheets I really wasn't able to reach the tuning to drag out the best from Ruptureless spec, since rupture cycle with standard spec (with weapon swap) was always ahead...
Now.. the reason may be related to a old version of my spreadsheet, or to a not high-end Eq, but also to a bad combination of Spec + Glyph + Gems.
From all the readings around I wasn't able to find a clear answer to my questions: what's the better combination of spec+glyph+gemming if I want to go Rupturless with WeaponSwap? Is there an updated mutilate spreadhseet with rupturless calculations working?
After a good number of tries, with a new and working spreadsheet, I found the edge.
Ruptureless cycle with weapons swap with classic spec 51\13\7 (with Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery instead of Blood Spatter), Glyph of Trick (or FoK at your discretion) instead of Rupture, gemming AP and AP + Cri is ahead of a really few dps (~0.35%) if compared to a 51\18\2 (with 2\5 in Relentless), gemming AP and AP + Haste.
This difference can be probably reseted or even overturned with better Eq.
Imo, seen the little difference in my early ToC 25 Eq, it would be probably better a 51\18\2 since the Weapon Swap (I'm using a script I found somewhere here around) triggers your GCD and you can slack a little more with more haste (more white and poison damage).
After a good number of tries, with a new and working spreadsheet, I found the edge.
Ruptureless cycle with weapons swap with classic spec 51\13\7 (with Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery instead of Blood Spatter), Glyph of Trick (or FoK at your discretion) instead of Rupture, gemming AP and AP + Cri is ahead of a really few dps (~0.35%) if compared to a 51\18\2 (with 2\5 in Relentless), gemming AP and AP + Haste.
This difference can be probably reseted or even overturned with better Eq.
Imo, seen the little difference in my early ToC 25 Eq, it would be probably better a 51\18\2 since the Weapon Swap (I'm using a script I found somewhere here around) triggers your GCD and you can slack a little more with more haste (more white and poison damage).
Hi there, i don't get your 2/5 in relentless. Why not 2/2 in opportunity?
In my understanding, point for point, Relentless is worth a fair bit more than Opportunity or simply put, 2/5 Relentless is worth more DPS than 2/2 Opportunity.
A contributing factor will be that Mutilate damage itself makes up a fairly small % of your total damage output (roughly 17% of my damage on our last NB 25Hc kill for example) and therefore +20% crit to Mutilate (and Garrote) has a, relatively speaking, fairly small impact on your overall damage output.
However increased energy income via Relentless will allow the use of more finishers and by extension a higher envenom buff uptime and hence more poison damage. Which is a far larger proprtion of your overall damage output.
A contributing factor will be that Mutilate damage itself makes up a fairly small % of your total damage output (roughly 17% of my damage on our last NB 25Hc kill for example) and therefore +20% crit to Mutilate (and Garrote) has a, relatively speaking, fairly small impact on your overall damage output.
However increased energy income via Relentless will allow the use of more finishers and by extension a higher envenom buff uptime and hence more poison damage. Which is a far larger proprtion of your overall damage output.
a) "Normal" 4+r/4+n/(4+n) cycling - i.e. always use 4+ finishers, and Envenom as many times as possible between ruptures.
Not sure if I understand this right, and sorry if I missed this somewhere. When you say 4+r, does that mean 4+ combo points rupture? And is the n for envenom?
Last edited by Horsedick.mpeg : 12/01/09 at 5:05 PM.
It appears the rotation for Mutilate has gotten quite a bit more complicated with the advent of patch 3.3, especially in regards to the new 51/18/2 spec that has surfaced. As far as the new poison changes were concerned, intuition is at first inclined toward specing Lightning Reflexes in that it directly buffs two of the largest sources of Mutilate damage - Melee and Instant Poison. The problem is that the spec cuts into one of Mutilate's most precious talents (Relentless Strikes), which has enormous implications on its cp cycles, energy management, and buff uptime.
It is here that theorycrafting with the simsheet becomes highly problematic, in that raw numbers from the most accurate of formulas do not always reflect what is practical. Luckily, Saurfang is a godsend for melee field testing, and I've been able to observe from dozens of the highest 51/18/2 parses exactly how the changes are affecting overall output, and with interesting results.
The first observations are as expected - Lightning Reflexes is resulting in about a 6% overall increase in Melee and IP output. On the other hand, Envenom is taking a huge hit, averaging in about a 4-5% loss of total output. This is no doubt due to the enormous loss in energy returns, which as stated earlier has enormous implications on Mutilate cycles. Players running 51/18/2 are missing roughly 600 energy in a 4.5 minute fight, with little to no increase from Focused Attacks. This loss of energy return is reflected in not only raw Envenom damage but also the uptime of its buff, where players running 51/18/2 are managing to keep it up 60% of the time in comparison to 80% with 51/13/7.
It's important to remember that your highest DPS as Mutilate is when you string 4cp finishers while under the Envenom buff. Energy returns are huge in maintaining such a Mutilate cycle, and the damage that energy directly translates into is more significant than a formula might show.
For example, consider the effects of also losing Opportunity in the trade for Lightning Reflexes. For parses that are currently doing around 11% damage with Mutilate, we would expect the talent to be around a 2.2% damage increase (.11 * .2). However, the increase in available energy practically double dips the talent (because you then Mutilate more), increasing its overall output by almost 4%. When you compare the 6-7% damage increase from Lightning Reflexes (not neglecting the 1-2% from the extra dagger crit) to the ~5% Envenom and 4% Mutilate damage increase from RS/OP, it appears that 51/13/7 is the most optimal spec if you know to handle your cp cycle well.
Remember that Saurfang is the most absolute ideal deal fight for 51/18/2 to shine. Its focus is entirely on passive talents while swinging. On any encounter with downtime, 51/13/7 will perform better due to higher Mutilate damage and burst. The same applies to encounters with AOE - where more energy and more Envenom uptime translates into more room for FOKs while also under its buff. I'm not sure how far ahead 51/18/2 was ahead on the simsheet, but I highly doubt it was able to factor in a lot of the practical facets of the Mutilate spec.
And so that brings me back to the point I made a while ago about reconsidering the 3v4 cycles. The loss of 5/5 Relentless Strikes is a pretty massive blow to using a strictly 4+ cycle, where you are now not only losing a CP, but also a guaranteed energy return while also dealing out an even weaker Mutilate in lieu of an Envenom. And of course there's the tier 10 4pc to consider, while making it known that it is possible to maintain the Envenom buff during bad RNG using only 3 cp finishers, but I digress.
I've been checking the parses the past few hours looking for any holes, but the more I study the more I deviate back to the conclusions above. And while I have far from BiS gear, the weapons used as well as the duration on most of the parses are the same across the board, so this is about the most accurate a field test can get. Having read through the entire simsheet thread, I'm really hoping that there is more discussion before entire specs are trashed, because we all remember how long people ran the 51/7/13 spec in Ulduar before discovering it was inferior.
11/22/09, 9:12 PM
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