This is to Mavanas, had a couple questions for you that i could not quite understand myself. I pulled up an Armory on you the other day when you were running in your Mut spec.

I pretty much figured you were running with the Runestone due to your high hit rating, what i didn't understand was your Expertise. On one instance i pulled your armory you were running with 13 expertise and another you were running with 9.

Has something changed with the importance of Expertise to Mutilate? With or without Rupture i was under the impression that you still needed it to be capped or near cap to prevent envenom from being dodged and snd falling off and wasting energy.

If you were just running this gear and stat setup for testing then disregard.

On a personal note with me i tried running the wep swap-ruptureless mut and the mechanics behind it i found way to "clunky" to be optimal for me in my role with my guild on the fights we are working on, so i went back to the 51/13/7 spec, still running ruptureless. My question here is if i should swap all my yellow gem slots back from agi/haste to agi/crit, i actually like the haste, just trying to find the best dps setup possible. Thanks for your answers in advance, feel free to armory me and let me know.

Great post, let's break it down.

1. My personal spec has nothing to do with what's optimal for you.
2. Nothing changed about the importance of expertise. If it shows as a suboptimal spec, it is that.
3. Clunky is the word of the day, BUT if you manage to live with it, you might be able to beat your guildmate rogues by 500 dps.

Without Regemming Ap/Haste (Currently have Agi and Agi/Crit) Would a 51/18/2 still be better than 51/13/7? If using the weapon swap? Will be using Norm Twin Spike MH/Heroic Steel Bladebreaker OH and Switching to another Norm Twin Spike with IP to OH.

Never had 4pc T8 and at this point have quit trying to obtain it. But I am getting 245/258 pieces already, and would like to go ruptureless. Not sure if the spec's are set up in the SIM sheet already, or if I'm messing up the settings but trying a Rupture Less rotation with or without weapon swapping seems to show up as 1k DPS less than using a rupture rotation. Same gear/enchants. Which doesn't seem right. As with my current gear and no Blood Splatter talent Envenom is already outscaling Rupture unbuffed.

Holding off on regemming AP as I may go combat if I ever get a MH and will have to regem then anyway.

Edit: Manually re entered my stuff and running now. Now it's showing a 1-1.3k DPS upgrade. Running a few to see difference between 51/18/2 and 51/13/7

Edit 2: With my gear/gemming it's showing 51/13/7 is ~40DPS more than 51/18/2 even going ap and ap/haste gems so guess I'll stick with it for now. Done raiding for the week so won't be able to actually test it until later.

I've incorporated all recent suggestions and gear stat inaccuracies. Also added a few items from 10 man toc. You will find it easier now to find items since I rearranged horde names, added item levels and sorted all items by their item level.

Also new in this version are the dps/point values for 18/51/2 combat with weapon swapping. Two columns in Gear page show the scores using mutilate and combat dps per point of stat. Use these with caution because dps/point estimates have 0.06 standard errors. But it should be a good start. I have also highlighted the items that I consider BiS for each spec, both for 3.2.2 and for 3.1.


After running the EP values for combat, I also manually confirmed that the best stats for combat with weapon swapping are hit and haste rating, followed by attack power. Thus optimal BiS gemming is up to the hit rating white cap, then haste gems. Red sockets are filled with ap/haste gems. I have updated my BiS post, that can be found here.

I found a bit of Stuff to add to the Spreadsheet:
Bloodfang mask (10 man Onyxia)
Shard of the Crystal Heart (50 Triumph emblems)
Cloak of the Silver Covenant (alliance)/ Cloak of Serrated Blades (horde) (10 man 45 attempt Tribute Chest drops)
Thanks for all the hard work on this

ok, got the new sheet today...and as always it looks good...however, I'm curious why you removed the Flexweave underlay for the cloak...or maybe it wasn't on 3.2.2b, and I added it...either way...can we add it to the list of enchants to add next release? or is there something i'm missing?

Hi Mavanas

i got a question about the spreadsheet

i keyed in every gear that i am wearing, it gave correct static.

then i ran the DPS simulation.

When i check the combat.

The KS used every 7x sec which is correct with the talent + glyph

but the BF used every 60 sec.

Is that correct, or i should run the DPS simulation couple times more?

Flexweave was never in the sheet, but it also has 1 agility difference from the regular enchant, so it's not that hard to change. Kil, I will look into more racials, so far as you noticed, I only model the stat differences.

Milk, BF is normally used every 2 minutes as long as you have the talent selected. The only time it can be used twice in the first two minutes is if you have a glyph of preparation and you preparation talent. How many times killing spree and blade flurry are used per combat does not change from try to try, it only depends on fight length and your talents and glyphs.

I apologize for that ugly post, I should have known better than to post from my phone. I dropped into my twitter habit.

I added it to the spreadsheet myself than Mavanas, I just figured I'd ask, since the other engineering enchants are in there.

Thanks for the reply. Off to spreadsheet some more.

I know off-hand swapping, though clunky, is obviously superior for now; but where is the turning point from 51/13/7 to 51/18/2, from gemming agi/crit (if not agi/haste) to gemming ap/haste, and from berserking to mongoose?

It wasnt a question while I was undergeared in 3.2 with T8 & ilv226 gears. Recently I'm closer to a standard ilv245 geared, but I still find (using 3.2.2.c) agi/crit & berserking are better than ap/haste & mongoose, and 51/13/7 is not inferior to 51/18/2. Are there some common mistakes I may make? Or is the turning point just that late?

I guess the most possible problem is my trinkets selection, because I dont have those optimal trinkets. Could you give me some general ideas to pick trinkets in the case one only has suboptimal ones?

My setup: T9.245 x4 with ilv245 chest, MH ilv232 / OH ilv245 daggers, some gears are 232/226.

I was wondering has it been decided which enchant should go on deadly weapon (when weapon swapping) - mongoose, zerking, accuracy?

After doing some research on Target dummies i found out that the Envenom buff is still applied to your character even when the Envenom is parried/dodged. If that could be worked into the sheet that might change some numbers (like expertise's EP in comparrison). it could even change BiS gear (though doubtedly)

Only use Accuracy if you a) are REALLY hurting for hit rating and b) can afford it. As your gear ilevel goes up you will find yourself with more hit than you really want or need. The dps bonuses from Berserking and Mongoose are far above and beyond what you'd see from Accuracy.

Could you add in the starter post that the file doesnt work in the "standard open office" but does work if you install "GO Open Office" (both are free)

Money is not the issue. I am aware that both Mongoose and Berserking are better options for PvE. However, I am asking which to enchant on offhand weapon with deadly on it, the one that's being swapped in to refresh the stack of deadly. More hit means more white hits which results in faster reapplication. I was wondering if there was some math on that issue so far. Currently I'm at 550ish hit, if it matters anyway.

That's been known for a long time, but I guess I cannot say for sure whether it's modeled in either sheet. Since it's been common knowledge for so long I'd assume that it has been.

You would probably be better off putting Black Magic on your weapon swap weapon (one it is changed in the next patch anyways.) than putting accuracy on it. If I remember correctly, its possibly to get a mongoose/berserking proc from that weapon swap weapon, resulting in the possibility of 3 berserking/mongooses up at once. So basically accuracy is probably the worst enchant for it, out of the four.

Necrosis, don't fill in the uptime or proc chance values for Victor's Call. The trinket has a different mechanics from everything else and is handled separately.

There was some talk about accuracy enchant. It's not worth it compared to either mongoose or berserking, especially because the proc does not fade away when you swap weapons. As far as Black Magic goes, it is worth using on one of the weapons, but since it has an internal cooldown, you'd use it only once every 40 seconds or whatever the cooldown is, so you would still need your regular offhands with mongoose or berserking, whatever is better for you. Also Black Magic can also be used on the mainhand weapon, as opposed to offhand.

The envenom mechanic mentioned above, where the proc goes up even if the envenom gets dodged, is a known rogue mechanic that is accounted for in the simsheet. It is yet another reason why expertise does not have a very high value compared to agility for instance.

Equipping trinkets with an internal CD make the trinket invoke the CD and are unable to proc for the duration. One could imagine that this mechanic are implemented for weapon enchants as well, making it a useless offhand enchant for weapon switching. It would be nice if someone having this enchant could test this.

What I dont understand, however, is what are the benefits of enchanting BM on mainhand?

It's been tested I believe and it can proc soon after swapping, so it does not act like a trinket, but they may well change it.
Y0XY, you only keep it on MH till it procs from poison, then swap your regular MH back on. Not sure if it makes a difference if it's your mainhand or offhand. I just thought ofthe mainhand because offhand is already involved in other type of swapping.

Well wouldn't it be better to have one more offhand with instant and BM on it, and swap it in each time icd is over, or does swapping OH trigger swing timer reset on MH as well (which would make it irrelevant, if not even better to use on MH)?