Thanks for the help, but I guess I wasn't clear, that I actually have the 245 Dirk.

Either way I think I will go for the First setup, since I've noticed that I have a relatively high envenom buff uptime and a fast mainhand benefits slightly more from it.

As for the offhand swap delay I've been using the 2-step macro from: here at a 4 second swap time and it's been working for me consistently (at least it feels more consistent than the outfitter setup).

Sinister strike, eviscerate and killing spree, but I did not test if AR is better than eviscerate tbh. You can run the simsheet to check that.

Using GO Open Office I'm having the iterations in the simulations be exactly the same. Was wondering if anyone else has this problem and if so if there is a fix?

Hey Mavanas what is your findings on the "Shard of the Crystal Heart" trinket as I cant seem to figure out how to add to SS

Yeah it takes some tweaking to add it. I did not run it, but it should be very close to the AP version, probably slightly better for combat with weapon swapping. Originally I did not add it because haste was below AP, but since it's catching up, it should be worth adding it in the next version or something.

Weapon swapping, rupture-less 51/13/7 vs. 51/18/2 vs. 51/13+/RS-O (51/13+/ with differing amounts of points in Relentless Strikes and Opportunity)

So, the spread sheet (3.2.2c) said it was time to go rupture-less. I was looking around on the rogue forum, and the Pocket Guide has 51/18/2 as the spec to be, but those 2 subtlety points are in opportunity, and I had seen at least one other poster in another thread (the in-depth mut cycle analysis thread) say the 2 subtlety points should be in Relentless strikes. I set off to see which it would be

So, based on *my* current gear with 4 min fight times, at 200 iterations, fully raid buffed I get DPS's of:

8426 for 51/13/7
8416,8420 for 51-18-2
8294 for 51/15/5-0
8281 for 51/16/4-0
8346 for 51/17/3-0
8341 for 51/18/0-2

Unbuffed I get:

4061 for 51/13/7
3959,3978 for 51-18-2
3997 for 51/15/5-0
4004 for 51/16/4-0
4016 for 51/17/3-0
3942 for 51/18/0-2

It looks like the 2 points are better served in Relentless strikes. On the heroic target dummy (no other debuffs on it, and I was unbuffed), 51/13/7 still seems the way to go compared to 51/18/2-0 and 51/18/0-2, and DPS's were within 1% of those simulated.


Next, I thought that at higher gear lvls (BiS) 51/18/2 would surely pull out ahead, but:

With BiS gear, fully buffed
51/13/7 has a DPS of 10620 while
51/18/2 has a DPS of 10643, a 0.217% increase


Is anyone else comparing 51/13/7 to 51/18/2 and getting similar results?

Your tests are generally consistent with what I have seen too. In BiS gear 51/18/2 is slightly ahead of 51/13/7. At lower levels of gear 51/13/7 is slightly ahead. However, the two points in subtlety should definitely be in relentless strikes, not opportunity.

I have a few questions concerning a weapon swapping ruptureless build, as i have been experimenting with mutilate lately.

Is it assumed that there is someone else providing a bleed debuff for HfB? and if so, is there a way to incorporate a bleed into our rotation if there is a lack of a bleed debuff in the raid.

Also, i'm in a slight dilemma when faced with my weapon options available for weapon swapping.

My current daggers are - Icefall Blade x2 (normal) Dirk of the Night Watch (1 heroic 1 normal)

What setup would provide me with the best results? I was thinking it would probably boil down to
DotN(heroic) IP MH + DotN(normal) DP OH and swapping to IB for instant poison, or

IB IP MH + DotN(heroic) DP OH and swapping to DotN(normal) for instant poison.

Thanks for any assistance provided .

Obviously this will vary slightly from raid to raid depending on setup, but personally I'm finding in most situations in a 25man environment there is a bleed being provided. However that will vary a little from fight to fight and from time to time during the same fight depending if you are on the Boss, or an add, etc. In the minor number of cases where no bleed is being provided I either throw in a rupture right before HfB would drop, or knowing the fights well enough now to reliably know when/if I will vanish and garrote I will count on refreshing it during garrote. 10 Man groups tend to lose the bleed much more easily, but the same idea applies.

I don't believe the sim sheet allows to actually model a third specific dagger (yet?) and for simulation purposes assumes that the 3rd dagger is the same as your "2nd". My assumption is your "best MH" dagger should be in your main hand with Instant, your "best OH" should be in your Off hand with Instant and the dagger with Deadly is somewhat irrelevant as it will only be in your hand for a short period of time, so the "best" dagger overall would be the ideal choice, preferably an "Off hand" Dagger if possible so if you keep the DP dagger equipped for a lengthy period of time you won't be loosing as great a deal of DPS.


Another second opinion probably wouldn't hurt, but in your specific case I think I would use Icefall in my MH with Instant poison, regular dirk OH with Deadly and Heroic Dirk OH with Instant.

Abbreviations: F=fast, S = slow, G= good, B = bad, meaning better or worse stats. MH = main hand, OHD =deadly poison offhand, OHI = instant poison offhand
Assuming the difference between your daggers is not huge (2 item levels and more), use the following rules to determine which daggers to use:

How many fast daggers do you have?
3: MH = best, OHI = second best, OHD = third best
2: OHD = worse of the fast, OHI = better of the fast, MH = slow
1: OHD = only fast, MH = better of the other two, OHI = worse of the other two (this case is not very good for weapon swapping in general)

If you have 4 daggers and one of them is slow, the choices get complicated depending on their quality. Slow but good dagger could end up in MH. If you only have bad slow ones, just use three fast daggers everywhere and follow the rule above.

Wouldn't a slower OH with IP trigger more poison procs? I haven't tested it myself, though, so I can't say how much energy regen would you lose from slow/slow IP setup.

I'm having a problem resolving the simulation spreadsheet results with actual results in-game. I'm wondering if anyone can point to a reason why this may be the case. The basic question I'm trying to answer is whether I should go Mutilate or Combat given the gear setup I have for each. As a matter of information, I'm comparing the use of Raging Deathbringer (245)/Lionhead Slasher (245) (combat) to using Heroic Icefall Blade (245)/Combatant's Bootblade (232) (mutilate). I haven't gone to ruptureless cycles, weapon swapping, or anything like that yet. I'm merely trying to determine which setup will be better in terms of DPS.

The spreadsheet says Mutilate wins by a pretty good margin, but when I hit the heroic practice dummy, Combat wins by just a clear a margin, according to recount (we are talking about a spread of about 200 dps here in both cases). OK so I thought maybe the problem was that I was not raid-buffed, so I took the raid buffs off in the spreadsheet simulation but the results still favored Mutilate by a similar margin. I'm pretty confident that I replicated the cycles on the dummy in both cases and I can't think of anything in the spreadsheet setup that I could be missing here to account for the discrepancy. But I'm certainly open to suggestions.

The one caveat is that Raging Deathbringer is not in the spreadsheet yet since we do not have info about the procs on it yet (yes I read the sticky and I'm not trying to ask whether the axe is good or not). I'm substituting another ilevel 245 axe in the simulation just to try to get a good calculation. Most of the charts I've read about the axe actually put it a little below other ilevel 245 axes, so if anything I'm giving this axe a boost in the spreadsheet. But I suppose this could be the issue - maybe the raging deathbringer is just that good? I just wouldn't think it would make that much of a difference.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas as to what is causing the discrepancy, I'd love to hear them. I'm inclined to think it is user error somewhere, I just can't figure out where...

It could be as simple as you having murder selected as a talent; the combat dummies are not murderable but the spreadsheet will list DPS assuming the target is murderable. Other assumptions the spreadsheet makes; like the uptime of turn the tables; may similarly be false in your case.

Your tests might also be quite biased by buffs/debuffs on the mob (are you fighting a dummy that has no one else attacking it?), length of tests, accurate glyphing... mistakes entering your gear/enchants etc in the spreadsheet. On the whole dummy-tests aren't considered very reliable evidence of anything.

Your also forgetting combat gets an automatic 4% damage increase.

Also when replicating mutilate, don't forget the simsheet assumes you are using vanish with garrote offensively. First vanish is done as soon as overkill buff runs out and conditions for a garrote are satisfied.

Would it be possible to add the 10 man tribute cloak to the list, as I am trying to decide whether the Heroic Cloak of the Untamed Predator or the Cloak of Serrated Blades, is better for 51/18/2 with weapon-swapping

My simple assumption is that the Untamed Predator cloak would be worth the stat loss due to the fact that it has haste, and weapon swapping mutilate benefits very well from haste

3.2.2c has it. Make sure you have the latest version.

Excuse my slight ignorance however - I cannot seem to get macros working without a scripting error in the 3.2.2c spreadsheet. I am using openoffice, as I do not have access to Microsoft Office at this point in time. So I decided to try to kill two birds with one stone and ask the question here, and hopefully find someone with the same macro issue.

I have been taking a gander at the Mutilate cycle analysis thread in hopes of getting a more firm understanding of how(if) the 3.2 cycle has changed and how it changes relative to gear. Right now weapon swapping isn't an option for me, as I don't have a firm grasp on it nor do I have the required gear for it. I would just to know that if the same guidelines stated in the pocket guide thread still apply, or is rupture-less the way to go, regardless of having T9/9.5.

As I said, I attempted to model these scenarios, unfortunately my office isn't allowing me to do so or I'm doing something direly wrong. I appreciate the work you all have put into the community to help keep rogues educated.

Requirements: Excel 2003 or later. Only tested in Windows OS. Prior versions of Excel are not advisable due to deficient RNG.
If you are using release version of Excel 2003, you might have to run a hotfix to RNG available here: The RAND function returns negative numbers in Excel 2003.
The file does not work in Standard Open Office, but works in GO Open Office.

From the front page.

Testing Mongoose on the sheet and it does not affect the crit cap though trinket procs are being calculated. Cell C7 has the current crit, adding to the trinket procs and appending the mongoose procs fixed that. I assume this should be in there as standard.


Original

Updated for Mongoose

Also in regards to [Cloak of Serrated Blades] ([Cloak of the Silver Covenant]) in 3.2.2c I'm not seeing it there either in the copy I just download today.

I just tried downloading the latest version but I still can't seem to find the cloak.

I appreciate you pointing out to me.