Rogue DPS Simulation Spreadsheet - Page 2

Mavanas · 04/08/09, 12:32 PM

I implemented more 3.1 changes in my new version of the spreadsheet:
- added T8 pieces and their bonuses
- new armor penetration and reduction mechanics based on latest PTR findings
I also fixed the envenom bug and added socket bonus values to the gear sheet to make it a bit more user friendly. You still have to activate the socket bonuses manually, but do not have to look them up on wowhead anymore.

I updated the main post with new links.

Mavanas · 04/09/09, 11:12 AM

I'll post the findings based on the simulation in this thread as opposed to 3.1. The program still has occasional bugs and until it's been peer reviewed and tested I don't want people in the 3.1 thread to start learning new cycles for 3.1 based on it.

I fixed two bugs yesterday. One is related to wound poison, where it was not affected by Vile Poisons in error. Second was with templates of combat specs, two of which did still did not contain lightning reflexes. With those changes done, combat has pulled ahead of mutilate and 15/51/5 has pulled ahead of 18/51/2. I also note larger variance in dps of the 18/51/2 spec, which has been anecdotically confirmed in the 3.1 thread.

I have replaced the current files with the fixed versions without changing the file name. So please update your versions by clicking the links above.

Now to the current findings about 3.1 dps:

Tree		Spec	DPS	Gear Notes				Poisons
Combat		15/51/5	6573	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems		WP/DP
Combat		7/51/13	6543	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems		WP/DP
Combat		18/51/2	6524	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems		WP/DP
Mutilate		51/13/7	6507	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	IP/DP
vHaT 2c/s		8/20/43	7660	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	WP/DP
vHaT with LR 2c/s	8/20/43	7726	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	WP/DP
nvHaT 2c/s	23/5/43	7706	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	IP/DP

Compared to the previous results posted in 3.1 thread, the changes include the 2 bug fixes, using full t8 instead of just 4 pieces, using agility gems as fillers for all specs and also adding a vHaT spec with LR currently appears to be highest dps spec out of all specs.

testor · 04/09/09, 11:59 AM

I get the same ratios on the numbers as well. And I find the modified 8_20_43 (LR) to be slightly ahead. However, by playing with the combat CPs (5/4) you can get them to flip flop position mildly.

We need to see how it actually performs, but I'm still thinking 8_20_43 (LR) is going to be significantly better due to the dynamics of moving around and paying attention to the 23_5_43. Of course the RNG plays such a huge factor, it will take a little time to get solid multiple encounter results that can be honestly compared.

MentalPROblem · 04/09/09, 1:17 PM

Thanks a lot for your work!
Is there any chance you could post ptr.wowhead.com or just wowhead.com links to the exact talent builds and names of the weapons you were using? I'm afraid I might be thinking of a wrong variation of the spec, is this the spec you are referring to as vHaT with LR 8/20/43 with Webbed Death/Webbed Death, WP/WP? thanks in advance.

ieatpaperbag · 04/09/09, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by MentalPROblem

Thanks a lot for your work!
Is there any chance you could post ptr.wowhead.com or just wowhead.com links to the exact talent builds and names of the weapons you were using? I'm afraid I might be thinking of a wrong variation of the spec, is this the spec you are referring to as vHaT with LR 8/20/43 with Webbed Death/Webbed Death, WP/WP? thanks in advance.

The right-hand column says what poisons are being used, the two 8/20/43 specs use WP/DP and the 23/5/43 spec uses IP/DP.

MentalPROblem · 04/09/09, 7:13 PM

Ye, but I wonder which weapons they are being used on and what is the exact spec.

ieatpaperbag · 04/10/09, 2:49 AM

Originally Posted by MentalPROblem

Ye, but I wonder which weapons they are being used on and what is the exact spec.

Download the simulator, the last setting on the sheet is the vHaT with LR 8/20/43 spec, show the exact weapons, gems, enchants, etc. used.

Sarah · 04/10/09, 10:06 AM

Could you perhaps add support for the human racial (3 expertise with swords and maces)? I sort of hacked it in myself but ran in some trouble when using e.g. a mace in mh and a dagger in offhand, since mainhand and offhand will then have different expertise & dodge chances, and atm. the spreadsheet only uses a single value.

Also, I think the CQC crit bonus is granted regardless of what type of weapons are equipped.

Mavanas · 04/10/09, 11:51 AM

I am using CG in MH for all specs accept for mutilate, for which I use SR. Slow MH is better for 3.1 due to the new poison ppm mechanics.

Sarah: I should really do that. Most people have been using fist/dagger or dagger/dagger combinations before, so having CQC apply to both weapons and having a single armor reduction coefficient was fine. I'll work on that adjustment, as well as sword spec, which is currently not implemented either.

MentalPROblem · 04/10/09, 12:50 PM

So the idea of Webbed Death/Webbed Death WP/WP for HaT build is no longer viable then?

Mavanas · 04/10/09, 1:17 PM

It's going to be slow/fast with WP/DP in 3.1 because slow main hand means higher proc chance from special attacks and DP's higher AP coefficient makes it a better choice for offhand.

Grunge · 04/10/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

It's going to be slow/fast with WP/DP in 3.1 because slow main hand means higher proc chance from special attacks and DP's higher AP coefficient makes it a better choice for offhand.

However, how fast does it have to be?
For vHaT 8/20/43 with LR and SnD, a relatively slow offhand might be enough to keep DP stacks from dropping and be viable.

While there's no inherent benefit in that (besides higher FoK damage), it does leave vHaT rogues with a choice to pass fast offhands to Mutilate/Combat and contest on the slow ones with Shamans.

Mavanas · 04/10/09, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Grunge

However, how fast does it have to be?
For vHaT 8/20/43 with LR and SnD, a relatively slow offhand might be enough to keep DP stacks from dropping and be viable.

While there's no inherent benefit in that (besides higher FoK damage), it does leave vHaT rogues with a choice to pass fast offhands to Mutilate/Combat and contest on the slow ones with Shamans.

DP can drop even with 1.4 speed offhand. Based on Vulajin's spreadsheet chance to be at zero DP stacks with 1.4 speed offhand is 3.9% (chance to go for 12 seconds with no procs). With a 1.8 speed weapon this chance goes up to 8.25%, which translates into roughly 40 dps decrease in poison damage. With two pieces of T8 it will be an even bigger dps loss. So I don't see slow offhands being viable if you use deadly poison on them, which does seem like the poison of choice for OH for any spec in 3.1.

Nagru · 04/11/09, 5:45 PM

I have a quick question about one of the selections on the DPS Strat sheet. There is the refresh row, and I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to refresh rupture before it wears off? Last I knew, the only thing that kept doing damage every tick even if it was refreshed, was deadly poison. Wouldn't refreshing rupture .2 seconds before it wears off actually make it 3.8 seconds between a tick? Or is my information on rupture old/outdated/wrong?

Mavanas · 04/11/09, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nagru

I have a quick question about one of the selections on the DPS Strat sheet. There is the refresh row, and I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to refresh rupture before it wears off? Last I knew, the only thing that kept doing damage every tick even if it was refreshed, was deadly poison. Wouldn't refreshing rupture .2 seconds before it wears off actually make it 3.8 seconds between a tick? Or is my information on rupture old/outdated/wrong?

If you are able to refresh rupture 0.2 sec before it expires, the last tick of your previous rupture will be lost and it will start a new timer based on the number of combo points of your new rupture. So there will in fact be a 3.8 sec interval between the last tick of the previous rupture and the first tick of the new rupture. After that it will go on at a regular 2 sec intervals.

Is it worthwhile to refresh it? It depends on reasons why it gets dropped and for how long. Here is an example when it might be worthwhile. Imagine you have 35 energy and you are 0.2 sec away from the time rupture expires.
Case A: eviscerate, with no relentless strikes proc, so you are at 0 energy, 0.2 second later rupture expires, 2.5 seconds later you have enough energy to renew rupture, but you do not have enough combo points. It may take 6 seconds or more before you rupture next time.
Case B: you allow to refresh rupture before it expires. You lose one tick of rupture, but you increase your rupture uptime.

Obvious drawback of allowing to refresh rupture in the simulation is simply that often you cannot refresh it because "a more powerful spell is already active." Other than that, just run the simulation and see for yourself whether it benefits your dps or not to allow for refreshing rupture.

Nagru · 04/12/09, 1:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

If you are able to refresh rupture 0.2 sec before it expires, the last tick of your previous rupture will be lost and it will start a new timer based on the number of combo points of your new rupture. So there will in fact be a 3.8 sec interval between the last tick of the previous rupture and the first tick of the new rupture. After that it will go on at a regular 2 sec intervals.

Is it worthwhile to refresh it? It depends on reasons why it gets dropped and for how long. Here is an example when it might be worthwhile. Imagine you have 35 energy and you are 0.2 sec away from the time rupture expires.
Case A: eviscerate, with no relentless strikes proc, so you are at 0 energy, 0.2 second later rupture expires, 2.5 seconds later you have enough energy to renew rupture, but you do not have enough combo points. It may take 6 seconds or more before you rupture next time.
Case B: you allow to refresh rupture before it expires. You lose one tick of rupture, but you increase your rupture uptime.

Obvious drawback of allowing to refresh rupture in the simulation is simply that often you cannot refresh it because "a more powerful spell is already active." Other than that, just run the simulation and see for yourself whether it benefits your dps or not to allow for refreshing rupture.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll try and go through scenarios and see what's worthwhile from there.

I also have a quick question of Blood Splatter. Does anybody have a rough idea of how many hat procs/sec that it's worthwhile to pick it up over the 6% eviscerate damage in Aggression, and when it's better to have the 6% eviscerate damage?

I think it's better when you have a much slower combo point flow to have more damage on rupture since you'll be eviscerating less and possibly even using hemorrhage for points when you are getting near capped on energy with little or no combo points, but I'm wondering if there's a specific point that anybody knows when it's better to have and better to skip?

Edit: Edited for grammar/spelling

Rilias · 04/13/09, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

Case B: you allow to refresh rupture before it expires. You lose one tick of rupture, but you increase your rupture uptime.

Please be aware that rupture uptime has no value in itself (barring the new HfB) since it is the number and power of rupture ticks that is important.
Clipping rupture does always cost you a number of ticks and whatever you could have done instead of rupturing should be (number of ticks lost * damage per tick) worse than performing a rupture to make rupturing viable. And even then you block yourself from performing a rupture that you benefit fully of for the duration this new rupture runs and this should be considered an extra cost of the clipping maneuver.

YLU · 04/14/09, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

Now to the current findings about 3.1 dps:

Tree		Spec	DPS	Gear Notes				Poisons
Combat		15/51/5	6573	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems		WP/DP
Combat		7/51/13	6543	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems		WP/DP
Combat		18/51/2	6524	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, AG gems		WP/DP
Mutilate		51/13/7	6507	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	IP/DP
vHaT 2c/s		8/20/43	7660	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	WP/DP
vHaT with LR 2c/s	8/20/43	7726	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	WP/DP
nvHaT 2c/s	23/5/43	7706	5/5 T8 poison hit capped, exp capped, AG gems	IP/DP

Compared to the previous results posted in 3.1 thread, the changes include the 2 bug fixes, using full t8 instead of just 4 pieces, using agility gems as fillers for all specs and also adding a vHaT spec with LR currently appears to be highest dps spec out of all specs.

Quick question, what does "2c/s" mean? :/

Mavanas · 04/14/09, 1:29 AM

2 c/s is 2 crits per second. That is, the number of crits that cause HaT proc (most special abilities) per second from your group members. It's a way of measuring the quality of your HaT group.

Nannou · 04/14/09, 9:05 AM

Is there an addon I could use that measures c/s in-game? It would be a precious tool to evaluate the quality of your group setup.

Loot · 04/14/09, 9:23 AM

Not one I know of. I started writing such but put on hold atm till I have more time and think how to handle some situations

Nannou · 04/14/09, 9:31 AM

Wouldn't it be possible to just track the number of HaT procs in the combatlog and do a simple average?

aeternal · 04/14/09, 11:11 AM

I wrote a very simple but useful extension to Recount for tracking # ability crits/min, and overall # ability crits (only abilities that trigger HAT)...once I come back from work, I'll put up a link if anyone wants to try it out.

Mavanas · 04/14/09, 11:16 AM

It would be an invaluable tool for HaT spec, so do share

Could you also make a list of abilities that you marked as ones that proc HaT, so we can check it off the lists floating in the HaT thread. Also our current understanding is the 1 second HaT cooldown is either not implemented or is bugged, so if you have some sort of timer going on, I would not worry about it till they fix it.

Oh and I hope your tool can count pets and add them to their owners or at least list them separatey so we can add them on our own.

aeternal · 04/14/09, 11:25 AM

Well, as I stated, it's just an extension to Recount, so it unfortunately doesn't have any special handling for the 1 second cooldown. Regardless, you'll have a good idea of who to stack in your group (it usually ends up being clearly survival hunters at the top, followed by elemental shaman, feral tank druid, fury warriors, and so forth). As for pets, last I tested, immediately after 3.0.8, pets no longer proc HAT. I tested this with a hunter in my group against target dummies.