I pulled out some numbers that can help you decide. I am constantly updating my cheatsheet for choosing swap out offhands, but it's not in a shape yet to make it usable for everyone. Here are some numbers from it though:
1. The cost of 0.1 speed for IP dagger is 38 dps
2. The cost of 0.1 speed for DP dagger is 150 dps
3. The uptime of IP dagger is 76%, the uptime of the DP dagger is 24%
So first thing is that you definitely want a fast dagger as DP offhand. Second, by using Twin Spike instead of Steel Breaker in main hand you lose only about 40 dps in BiS gear. At the same time using the DotNW in main hand is about 200 dps loss. Finally, using regular Dirk over heroic Steelbreaker as DP offhand is about 40 dps loss.
All in all, i'd say two choices seem about equal:
- MH Steel, IP OH Steel, DP OH DotNW
- MH Twin Spike, IP OH Steel, DP OH Steel
I'd personally go with the second one because I don't know about you, but I am using the Outfitter script to swap and I am not so sure it reliably swaps my offhands at 3 seconds remaining, which would ensure low uptime of the DP dagger. For me I set the Outfitter to 5 seconds and because of lag it ends up swapping some timebetween 2 and 4 seconds. If you set it to a higher swap time, the cost of using ilvl232 DP dagger instead of an ilvl258 dagger will go up.
I am actually in a different predicament. My MH is the 258 1.8speed. I have a fast 245 and a slow 245. I originally thought using the slow 245 for DP would be wise, but after reading this that does not seem so.
So the slower dagger for IP won't hurt focused attacks and IP procs as much as not getting the deadly stack I am guessing.
About mongoose and crit cap, I did not include it there on purpose. I suppose you can add both mongooses up if you want to see the worst case scenario. However, the more procs you add to that, the less likely it is to see that scenario. Right now it's simply showing the trinket procs, so you know if some of your procs are wasted. Adding double mongoose to the crit cap indicator will probably make the cap number less informative if not misleading. Consider what happens if you have DCG, DC and double mongoose. Right now the indicator shows only the two trinket procs, so the uptime of that is probably around 15% (an educated guess). If you add double mongoose proc, which is independent of the trinket procs and has an uptime of about 30% for mutilate, then you will likely see a red flag that you are going over the crit cap, but you should know that you are only going over the crit cap during about 5% of the fight.
So I will think how to present the crit cap information better. Perhaps I can show several crit caps with and without the mongoose procs.
The problem with showing the uptimes is that to calculate them I need to use the simulation for every combination of trinket procs. Plus I need to use the simulation to find out the uptimes of 1 mongoose and 2 mongoose procs. Of course all these uptimes vary with spec and gear, so there is no easy loop back within the framework of the simsheet to automatically update the uptimes as you change your gear and specs.
If you think it's helpful, I can calculate these values once for mutilate BiS setup and then check that the values do not change drastically for combat (crit capping is more likely for mutilate since it favors agility gemming more).
Unfortunately, this spreadsheet doesn't work for me when I use Open Office or Open Office Go.
The numbers I'm getting back are somewhat confusing...
However I try to configure my buffs, my best DPS strategy (51/13/7) at this point seems to be: pool to 55, use mutilate to 4/5 CPs, and then Envenom as my only finisher. The only time I can get rupture+envenom to beat envenom is limiting myself to self buffs and Bleed Damage buff only. Even then, it's within 1%
Conversely, WITH raid buffs there's a 0.55% difference in favor of Envenom only.
With weapon swapping, a potion of speed (had them turned off for the sim), and w/o the bonus bleed damage this difference should become even more pronounced.
Even with mediocre gear, the spreadsheet is implying that my max DPS rotation for raids doesn't include Rupture. Should the mutilate cycle be reanalyzed?
1st I would like to thank everyone for the incredible work that has resulted in the spreadsheet(s) to date. I am just starting to use the Mut spreadsheet and am very impressed.
This post is for clarification of what the spreadsheet can/cannot do. I was under the impression that by inputting my current gear the spreadsheet would generate recommended upgrades based on my current stats/spec to achieve maximum DPS (for example, socket gem "X" in a certain socket for a theoretical DPS increase)
It seems to me then, that if I set up my gear and empty all the sockets, the spreadsheet should recommend gems to cap certain stats based on their weights. For example, let's say that with no gems in my gear (except meta) I am already hit capped but not expertise capped ... should the spreadsheet not recommend expertise in all red sockets until the cap is hit? I noticed the "recommend expertise" item on the settings page and toggled it on. However, the spreadsheet is telling me to gem AP for all sockets regardless of color (in fact the meta won't even be active) except in my chest if I put in the recommended Bright it then tells me to switch to Wicked and when I switch to Wicked it tells me to go back to Bright lol. This seems strange to me for 2 reason
1. in a Mut spec, crit seems to be uber-important (energy regen from FA)
2. socketing all AP without 25 Expertise just seems so wrong (I know we are supposed to stand behind, but the world is not a perfect place)
I am certainly not an expert, but my understanding was that for Mut it was relatively important to reach for the crit cap to maximize energy regen (more Mutilates and Envenoms before refreshing Rupture) Understand that this is not a BiS situation (by a long shot) so ruptureless isn't an option. I have done some shuffling in game (all AP, to mostly Agi, now capped exp and focused on crit MoT instead of GT). My current setup (the last of those 3) is far superior and has pushed me over 5k on 10man Koralon and close to 10k on Ony10 (unlimited energy on the whelps with crits) I made these decisions based on following discussions in the various threads here. Which is why I am confused about the spreadsheet recommending all AP gems.
If I am expecting the spreadsheet to do something for me that it cannot, that's perfectly fine. If I am using it improperly, ok ... any thoughts on what I am missing? The version I am using has all the BiS gear listed so I assume it is the latest version.
I can fart around in the game blowing 1000s of gold to test out different gem combinations, but if that is what the spreadsheet is for then it seems the height of folly.
I just can't seem to trust it when it tells me to stack AP even though that will actually decrease my DPS when I start getting blocked/parried and my energy regen is nerfed.
I just can't seem to trust it when it tells me to stack AP even though that will actually decrease my DPS when I start getting blocked/parried and my energy regen is nerfed.
Expertise isn't the best value per point for DPS, it just helps mutilate rogues stabilize their cycle so they don't end up wasting energy or losing SnD if their finishers get dodged.
AP or Agi are probably better for you DPS, but that's assuming that you react according to the given DPS Strat at all times, and don't get thrown off suddenly by a dodged finisher.
Additionally, I think haste is more important than crit for Mutilate rogues at higher end gear, and the spreadsheet does agree with me there. (although 2 AP or 1 Agi is still worth more than 1 haste, for me, at the moment.)
Simply put, the spreadsheet gives you the value of Expertise in an ideal situation. It's worth more if you make errors as a result of not being expertise capped. The tighter your gameplay is, the less expertise is worth. That is, until it drops to a minimum value, which is the amount the spreadsheet estimated.
Spoon that's what I mean when I say I need to use the simulation to determine that uptime value. To do that I have it record the appropriate uptime instead of the DPS number. Mind you the uptime of the intersection of 2 trinkets and 2 mongooses is not something that the sheet calculates on a regular basis, I have to add several columns and calculate several averages to extract it. In it's current form, the simulation is capable of recording only 1 value, DPS by default. I can manually change it to output any value, and even several values at a time if I tweak the sheet a little bit, but then all the statistical comparisons, such as p-values become useless. So in short, the sheet is highly customizable to give you any vaue, such as an uptime of complex interaction of trinkets and procs, but to allow any user to do it every time they run the simulation would require big interface changes.
Xeis, it is not surprising to me that envenom-only cycles are pushing out rupture as your gear improves. As you gain more haste and white hit, the value of poison damage from mainhand increases. That in turn increases the value of the envenom buff. That's on top of 3.2 buff to envenom damage itself. So after a while envenom pulls ahead, but that depends on your gear of course. If you were to put in 4-piece t8, I bet you rupture would pull ahead, with bleed damage buff anyway.
Destarah, you are talking about a different mutilate sheet. The simsheet does not automatically provide gem recommendations. However, I am not very surprised that the sheet recommends using AP gems for you. The same findings appear in the simsheet as well, as your gear improves AP catches up with AG. You mentioned expertise and crit rating, but they have less value than agility for mutilate, especially if you use envenom-only cycles (switching to that greatly reduces the chance of a cycle disruption due to one dodged envenom). By the time you reach BiS gear, AP should become your best gemming option, however it is not far ahead of AG gemming in terms of DPS, so you may consider gemming AG anyway for its defensive sideeffects.
Xeis, it is not surprising to me that envenom-only cycles are pushing out rupture as your gear improves. As you gain more haste and white hit, the value of poison damage from mainhand increases. That in turn increases the value of the envenom buff. That's on top of 3.2 buff to envenom damage itself. So after a while envenom pulls ahead, but that depends on your gear of course. If you were to put in 4-piece t8, I bet you rupture would pull ahead, with bleed damage buff anyway.
I'd say it's pretty surprising, because I'm far from BiS gear. It goes against the traditional Mutilate DPS cycle.
I use the Simulation, There is no Racial skill used in the sheet. For example Troll's "Berserking" or Orc's "Blood Fury". Do you think those skills effect the DPS??? and which Horde Racial is better for PVE Rogue????
Last night, I was running ToC 25 with a pick-up group, and my weapon swapping macro was broken. I fixed it before Faction Champions, but what I noticed on the Beasts and Lord Jaraxxus brought up a question I feel is valid under certain circumstances: is a Ruptureless Mutilate cycle with the 51/13/7 spec without weapon swapping still comparable especially if the only other offhand available is significantly slower (1.8 vs 1.4)?
It's possible that this has already been discussed. I've tried my best to make sure it hasn't, but I suspect that I may be wrong simply because it seems obvious.
Of course they do affect your DPS but I guess the troll racial is better than those from the orcs or other races but I could be wrong though.
Orc is better if you are a combat rogue due to the free axe expertise that comes with it. Otherwise I suspect troll racial comes on top due to haste scaling but it's going to be really close anyway.
Objects are not deceiving, they are deception.
What we see what we hear, all that our sences present to us is a fiction no more real then a dream.
We can only know that which we believe, that is all we have.
Last night, I was running ToC 25 with a pick-up group, and my weapon swapping macro was broken. I fixed it before Faction Champions, but what I noticed on the Beasts and Lord Jaraxxus brought up a question I feel is valid under certain circumstances: is a Ruptureless Mutilate cycle with the 51/13/7 spec without weapon swapping still comparable especially if the only other offhand available is significantly slower (1.8 vs 1.4)?
It's possible that this has already been discussed. I've tried my best to make sure it hasn't, but I suspect that I may be wrong simply because it seems obvious.
Yes it's been discussed and yes it's viable. I'm not into the idea of weapon swapping so this is what I've been running for the past couple months. As always, use the Simulation Spreadsheet to determine if your gear is better with or without rupture in your rotation.
Just tried it out. While it's certainly faster than the Outfitter setup, there still appears to be some noticable delay when swapping in the offhand with Deadly Poison. I can't say whether this is due to the addon having to scan your bags or if it's the same equipdelay that occurs in Outfitter.
Fact of the matter is it isn't as fast as the original macros I made or the frankly quite brilliant "initiate and toggle"-macros Grigori posted here: Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion.
Probs to Antiarc for taking the effort to put it into an addon (which to be fair is alot easier to manage for most people), but equip delay is really a huge factor here and if anything issue that will negate the benefit from weaponswapping
Fact of the matter is it isn't as fast as the original macros I made or the frankly quite brilliant "initiate and toggle"-macros Grigori posted here: Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion.
Probs to Antiarc for taking the effort to put it into an addon (which to be fair is alot easier to manage for most people), but equip delay is really a huge factor here and if anything issue that will negate the benefit from weaponswapping
It is quite literally that script wrapped in an addon. The only thing the addon "does" is activate the first script automatically upon logging in. There is no difference, you perceived one.
edit: In fact, the addon should be faster for people with slower PCs, because it checks your DP stack differently than the script does. The script checks every time something "happens" to the mob, the addon specifically checks for your DP stacks. Which is why the addon swaps to your DP dagger when you swap targets instead of waiting for you to attack.
Just tried it out. While it's certainly faster than the Outfitter setup, there still appears to be some noticable delay when swapping in the offhand with Deadly Poison. I can't say whether this is due to the addon having to scan your bags or if it's the same equipdelay that occurs in Outfitter.
Fact of the matter is it isn't as fast as the original macros I made or the frankly quite brilliant "initiate and toggle"-macros Grigori posted here: Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion.
Probs to Antiarc for taking the effort to put it into an addon (which to be fair is alot easier to manage for most people), but equip delay is really a huge factor here and if anything issue that will negate the benefit from weaponswapping
There's a delay because it's waiting for a mainhand swing before equipping. This saves you from a swing timer reset, and results in an overall DPS gain. The timer to switch at is computed at (set time + time left on swing), so in theory, it should be executing the swap at about your set threshold.
It's quite a bit more than the macro script wrapped in the addon. It does intelligent poison selection in addition to the aforementioned swing time shenanigans, and doesn't scan debuffs quite so aggressively as the macro does.
The addon doesn't check "every time" something happens to the mob. It buckets combat events and fires the check from them, and also forces a check when you change targets. Again, the intent is for it to be both more intelligent and more efficient than the macro.
It is quite literally that script wrapped in an addon. The only thing the addon "does" is activate the first script automatically upon logging in. There is no difference, you perceived one.
edit: In fact, the addon should be faster for people with slower PCs, because it checks your DP stack differently than the script does. The script checks every time something "happens" to the mob, the addon specifically checks for your DP stacks. Which is why the addon swaps to your DP dagger when you swap targets instead of waiting for you to attack.
Actually, the various Outfitter and macro solutions in the "changes" thread all use the same DP timing logic bural's macros use. Some of the solutions check more often than others, but they all (attempt to) implement the same strategy. The addon is strategically different in that it waits for a MH swing to swap. Unfortunately, it waits for a MH swing unconditionally, which is not necessarily strategically sound.
In theory, an addon will decide between waiting for the MH swing to swap, waiting for the OH swing to swap, and swapping immediately (based on conditions including where the MH/OH swing timers are, whether the swap is DP->IP or IP->DP, etc.). For example, if you are using three daggers with identical speed, and your Mutilate refreshes DP 0.9 sec from your swing, you swap immediately clipping the swing so your next swing is with IP, but if you are 0.1 sec from your swing with DP, you wait for the swing before swapping.
In practice, the best you can hope for is probably Mavana modifying his 'sheet to model the wait/no-wait decisions and you code a few pre-calculated inflection point values into the addon. Given that Blizzard is now "leaning toward" doing something about weapon swapping, modifying the 'sheet is probably not worth the effort at this point.
These are my observations based on empirical results from building an addon+macro weapon swap package for an Assassination Rogue: On the IP->DP swap, triggering the swap off MH swing with a slightly longer DP lead time beats triggering the swap ASAP once inside your DP lead time; on the DP->IP swap, triggering the swap ASAP after the DP refresh beats triggering the swap off MH swing after the DP refresh.
I am worried a little about timing of swapping and swings.
- First of all, how do you determine when the next swing occurs? Do you assume the delay is the same as the previous one or you track the haste at every point of time?
- Second, I know that certain processes occur on the client side and some on the server side. How does this work into the exactness of swap timing? Is there a delay between when the addon issues a command to swap and when the swap actually occurs? Can it happen that by forcing the timing of swings and swaps you actually hurt yourself because the swap always occurs 100 miliseconds after the swing (just an arbitrary lag amount)?
Short version, I keep a record of the last 10 swings, and the mainhand swing speed during those last 10 swings, and look for an appropriately-sized gap between the current swing and a past swing. If a gap of the appropriate size is found, it's considered a mainhand swing. This means that 2x weapons of the same speed won't have great mainhand swing speed detection, but even worst-case, the swap always happens immediately following either an offhand or mainhand a swing.
The actual events used are the SWING_DAMAGE and SWING_MISSED sub-events of the COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED event. It's about the best resolution we can get, but anecdotally, it "feels" pretty good just from developing and testing it.
I'm noticing a marginally longer swap time to IP since I upgraded from 0.4.2 to 0.4.5, at least compared to Grigori's script. Deadly is proccing on top of a 5 stack occasionally now, and it never used to before.
Swaps aren't immediate, as the mod looks for a mainhand swing before swapping. It's entirely possible to proc Deadly with an offhand swing while waiting for a mainhand swing.
11/05/09, 11:21 AM
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