You can't envenom unless you have Deadly Poison up. The setup you're thinking of is dual-IP/Eviscerate. If you envenom, you have to have IP/DP.

EDIT: It's possible you're thinking of an double IP/Envenom setup which was possible in theory when 3.0 was in beta, where Deadly Brew would make IP procs put up a stack of Deadly. This isn't possible now however.

You can't envenom without a DP stack, so going dual-IP with Envenom isn't going to work. Unless you're thinking of a fast dagger w/ DP in OH to get 5-stack of DP up, and then switching to two slow daggers with IP? In which case, you'd still need to swap the fast OH in occasionally to renew the DP stack.
edit: whoops, took too long to post.

With Ip/ip you cannot envenom unless you do something weird.

Edit: too slow by a few min

These two have appeared on MMO as well:

The first was expected given recent posts.
Throwing spec not affecting FoK means that it goes back to being purely a ranged interrupt on deadly throw.

It would be interesting to see if a weapon swap - shiv macro to reapply DP every 10-11s would work, the IP damage has the potential to be quite high. It'd add a little flavor to the Rupture free rotation as well.

I know weapon swapping affects the auto - attack timer, but would it be more valuable to have a shiv macro to keep DP on and further utilize the near 100% Env buff uptime? I'm trying to figure out the PPM rate of IP with full buffs, it's been a while =/

My mistake, I have a bad habit of not expressing myself fully because I assume certain things are well-enough implied, when clearly they are not.

I was referring to the idea (back prior to 3.1's release) that one would open using an Off Hand with Deadly Poison, and once one reached 5 stacks, would swap the Off Hand for a third dagger, this one with Instant Poison (hence, dual IP). The Shiv comment in my first post was referring to the consequent swapping back of the original Off Hand to refresh the DP stacks before they fell off (using Shiv, since there was no other way to be certain DP would be reapplied in time).

Since Mutilate is hardly GCD capped, I'd guess that with such a cycle as I described, one would merely need to equip the DP Off Hand for one swing before switching back to the IP Off Hand; all with relatively little risk to capping out on Energy, or allowing any buffs to fall off.

TtT would be my assumption as it was only a marginal benifit to begin with.

Blood Splatter or TtT.. Depends on this goes through or not =/

edit: beat to the punch

You would drop TtT, since its only 6% crit on your combo moves, so only Mut gets the benefit.

I'm already running with 2/3 MP and 1/3 TtT because of how many Envenoms I get in between Ruptures. The stacks just dont build fast enough without MP. With this new change, Mut will be going from good to even better. No more watching Deadly Poison ticks!

Also, is it even worth it to switch weapons to IP/IP? I don't know about you guys, but I'm chaining Envenoms for maximum uptime on the buff. It just seems with using up that extra global cooldown that you would be very very prone to making mistakes with your weapons. Plus, this doesn't matter that much, but wouldn't it reset your swing timer as well?

If no rupture rotations become viable for muti presumably you'd drop blood spatter and pick up fleet-footed right?

If no rupture rotations do become preferable, does that push us into gearing for ArP?

I'd like to suggest we hold off on the discussion of "what happens if we drop rupture" until we actually figure out if there's any chance of us actually dropping rupture. This makes it *more* likely, to be sure, but some analysis needs to be done to figure out if we're actually reaching that crossover point or not.

That said: has anyone been on PTR to confirm that a) the change actually works (unlike last time) and b) whether or not this is instead of or in addition to the DP proc rate boost?

The Master-Poisoner-Tooltip is now probably the one with the most text in the game.


In the short test that I did DP was never consumed by Envenom, whether the procrate is increased during the time I could not check.

I just downloaded the update and got on, the changes are in addition to what MP previously did and it works 100% from what I can tell.


Edit I'm slow

So, I think the problem we're going to find here is that going 3/3 Master Poisoner simply won't be worthwhile, as with, say, 2 points, we'll already have a 66% chance to not clear stacks and a 85% reapplication rate, which will result in very nearly full uptime - hence, taking a point or two in TtT (or whatever) will prove to be an appealing alternative over the third point, which will be of at most marginal benefit. This is somewhat true already, and I suspect it's only going to become more true with this change. And thus, nothing changes at all, as if we're only speccing 1 or 2 points into Master Poisoner, it makes no difference in needing to time our Envenoms, and makes little to no DPS difference as well. Which means that I'm not sure that this change really makes any difference at all from a practical perspective, save for enabling a "lazy rogue" spec/cycle - which is inferior by a relatively small amount and somewhat easier, thus enabling competitive if not optimal DPS for those who are not interested in doing what's actually optimal.

No, switching to a slower OH dagger is not worthwhile. The loss of focused attacks procs outweighs the increased mutilate damage. I investigated that when modeling dual IP mutilate, in which there was even an extra benefit of a slow dagger, namely higher chance to apply IP from an offhand attack of a mutilate. Even then, the focused attacks effect outweighed both benefits of a slow dagger.

As far as MP is concerned, I think together with changing the AP multiplier of envenom, this is an attempt to keep mutilate away from Arp gear with dual IP and talented and glyphed eviscerate, which seemed to have pulled ahead of traditional envenom mutilate.

Regarding dual IP with dagger switching, even before these changes, I did math for combat, where it was marginally worthwhile to swap offhand daggers, one with DP and the other with WP, back and forth in time to refresh DP stacks. It was only worthwhile during heroism and CT proc. Using Shiv was a slightly less attractive option, but still a dps increase during heroism.

Now changing the backup file to fit mutilate with the new MP, the gain from switching daggers with IP and DP poisons is definitely worthwhile. In BiS agility-based mutilate gear, the DPS gain during heroism is around 600 dps. Even without heroism, the dps gain from swapping is around 400 dps. The strategy is to wait for a DP reapplication, swap in dagger with IP, wait for for 9 seconds then swap back to the dagger with DP. It is important to envenom sometime within 5-6 seconds before swapping back to DP.

During the envenom buff, probability of dropping DP in the last 3 seconds is 4%. When calculating the dps gain, I took into account the DP tick reset cost and DP stack drop cost given their probabilities.

Well, even if someone is flawlessly timing every single envenom to land right after a DP tick, it's still not guaranteed that you will get back to a 5 stack by the next tick. It's not going to be a big deal at all, but it is something.

There is some merit to a IP/DP OH weaponswap rotation, although I would leave out Shiv and try to simulate a swap every 7 seconds so the DP refreshes on its own.

Dropping Rupture from our cycle will mean spamming Envenoms, which means a significant uptime in the "Envenom" buff.

Dropping Rupture from Combat spec can only be done at high gear levels, this would appear to be something to consider for Mut rogues right when they break their t8. 100% DP stack uptime + harder hitting Envenoms + greater "Envenom" buff uptime = might be something solid. IDK.

A combat rogue can drop Rupture out of their cycle well before "high gear levels". I currently run a Rupture-Free cycle and it seems to be higher than my 4s/5r/5e cycle I was running before. I have tested this on tank-n-spank bosses, mobility bosses, and test dummy. Based off my test, the two things required to run a Rupture-Free cycle is to not have four piece t8 and you must be/or very close to armor pen cap. (mace in the main-hand helps out a ton)

Also, I know the new 1.3 combat sheet is in beta right now... but I have done multiple test with it, and it comes up with Rupture-Free cycles. IE: the total damage calc doesn't include any bleed damage.

A side note regarding the new mut changes, I would think after patch mut rogues would be able to drop Rupture as well. With deadly poison having 100% uptime, you could spam Envemon every 4+ combo points. No watching a deadly poison timer or losing any damage for not having 5 stacks of deadly poison up. Envemon is also getting a slight damage buff on the PTR (7% increased to 9% from attack power).

I am very interested in seeing a rotation that focuses on envenom buff + dual IP uptime.

Something like this:

IP/DP to 5cp
weaponswap to IP/IP
Envenom
5cp
Envenom
weaponswap to IP/DP until DP is refreshed and you have 5cp
weaponswap to IP/IP
Envenom
5cp
Envenom
...

The only drawback is that this spec would be ~30% nature damage, which marginalizes arpen. This may actually make Mark of Nog good for something as well.

I'm really looking forward to this as well.. It would definitely make the spec a lot more heads-up challenging.
I'm seeing everyone say it'd be better to swap weapons at 10s, would that always beat a Shiv macro? (Ik, ~85% chance to reapply DP in those 2s?)

With 3/3 MP, the chance to apply DP after an envenom is 30+10+45+15=100%, so as long as your next melee offhand swing lands, it's guarranteed to refresh the DP stack. You just need to give it 2 seconds to allow for a swing reset and minimize the chance of a melee miss or dodge.

Also there is a cost of reseting DP tick timer if you refresh it this late, but it's smaller than the gain from extra IP damage. So 9-10 seconds in BiS gear seems optimal.