Might I ask, how much is the crit cap? I am running with full epci agi gems and I am starting to wonder if I have reached the crit cap my self.

Your armory is currently under maintenance, but unless you have Dark Matter then you are most likely not hitting crit cap.

If you do have it, i believe crit cap can still be calculated by: (100% - Chance to Miss - Chance to be Dodged - 24% glancing).

It's slightly more to it than that. You are forgetting the reduced chance to crit a boss type monster, and also it's hard to know what your chance to be dodged is since your character sheets only shows it for who expertise points (rather than expertise rating).

You can use aldriana's spreadsheet to do the calculation for you, or here is a php calculator I made that can do the same thing:

World of Warcraft Rogue Crit Cap Calculator

Edit: Hrm, something is glaringly off between either Aldriana's or my calulation as they differ by ~5% according to my spreadsheet. Strange as my formula was approved by multiple people on here (Mavanas being one of them).

Anyway to manually do it here is the formula you should use (as far as I know):

Crit Cap = 100 - Glancing - Dodge - Miss + Reduced Chance To Crit Bosses

or

Crit Cap = 100 - 24 - ([214 - X] * 0.000305) - ([722 - Y] * 0.000305) + 4.8

Where X = current expertise rating* and Y = current hit rating.

*Just remember if you have Weapon Expertise each point is equivalent to (8.2 * 5) expertise rating. The 722 max hit rating already assumes you have 5/5 Precision though.

Again there is something glaringly different between Aldriana's and mine (unless I entered something totally wacky on my spreadsheet accidentally). Aldriana if you know what it is I'd like to know so I can fix my little calculator if I was wrong.

Edit 2: Me and Aldriana's sheets are off by 0.03% dodge (equivalent to about 1 expertise rating) which can be attributed to rounding and 4.75% total. If I take off the extra 0.03% to be the same as Aldriana's, that's a total of 4.78% difference. That's awfully close to the 4.8% reduced chance to crit against bosses, which I'm wondering if Aldriana accidentally (or purposely?) left out of his equation.

While the 4.8 crit reduction should be addressed and i believe i did include it in crit cap calculation awhile ago when i posted about it, i just left it out since its not technically part of the "cap" as much as reducing your crit chance against a boss target.

Your cap would therefor be the same and the crit % you have after raid buffs would be reduced by 4.8%. Though as it stands either way of calculating the crit reduction does indeed work.

Eh, true the cap is not actually changing, but to the average person trying to work out their own personal crit cap that 4.8% matters.

If you have a 60% crit cap against normal monsters, you do in actuality still have a 60% crit cap against bosses. The major difference though is those two numbers are completely different on the character sheet (which is what somebody would be using). The crit cap against bosses would of course by 64.8% on the character sheet.

Once again, I see the argument and the probable reason why Aldriana left it out of his equation, but I don't really see the function of it. I know I would much rather know that I should only worry about breaking the 64.8% as opposed to the 60% "real" figure. Again, this is for bosses only. I guess another very reasonable argument is that there are a lot of enemies in an instance who are not boss class, but, granted, they are still higher than level 80 usually anyway.

Point being, when I report numbers on the sheet, I'm reporting your actual effective crit rate, including the -4.8% - thus, it makes sense to report your actual armor cap in real crit as well. If you're trying to do it off tooltips, yeah, some of the stuff needs to be different; but if you're comparing "how much you actually crit bosses" to "how much you *can* actually crit bosses", it's a pretty easy straight-across comparison.

The trees will not stay exactly the same as they are now. Remember they will be changing all talents that grant passive damage bonuses. They will probably make other changes as well. All they said is that they wont be extending the trees and adding additional tiers. It is way too soon to be speculating on level 85 talent choices.

Yup, we can expect some talents to change from tier-X to tier-Y to avoid some overpowered talent configurations.
Similar changes occured when we got new talent points (and new ultimate talents, yes) in the past.

Indeed , it's way to early to waste time theorycrafting on this.

Not to mention that the "mastery" system and the bonuses coming purely from number of points spent in each tree will require a complete overhaul of all talent theorycrafting.

The latest ptr notes indicate an envenom change.

Envenom - Damage increased by 2% per dose of Deadly Poison (10% damage increase at 5 doses).

The notes on MMO Champ are just a formulaic version of the change we already saw (previous version scaled 7% with AP, now scaling 9% with AP).

Just a thought on the upcoming armor penetration nerf:

Even though the new cap will require a higher amount of armor penetration rating to achieve, should not the EP value of Armor Penetration rating once this cap is achieved be the same as it is now at the current cap? Or am I blatantly overlooking something?

If this is in fact the case, then the "nerf" will actually become a buff of sorts at future gear levels where ArPen capping is a possibility again:

Let's say you have 1400 stat points to work with. Currently you could fill up to 1232 of those points with ArPen, and then you'd have to put the remaining 168 into agility. If the EP of ArPen was 3.1, and that of Agi was 2.1 (not accurate of course, but suitable for this demonstration), then the total EP score would be [(1232*3.1) + (168*2.1)] ~ 4177.4

Post nerf, you allocate all 1400 stat points toward ArPen, and at an ArPen EP of 3.1, the total EP value of these stat points would be (1400*3.1) ~ 4340.

I'm probably missing something obvious and will end up deleting this post, but I'd like to hear some more educated thoughts.

No.

First, each point is worth less ArPen; so while 1% ArPen at cap is worth the same amount of damage before and after the nerf (assuming you're at the same total ArPen level), it takes more rating to make 1%, so it's still a 13.6% reduction per point at the same ArPen level. The fact that your ArPen will tend to be lower at equal gear is an additional nerf on top of this.

Second, how could it possibly be a buff to have to spend 170 extra stat points to get the same benefit? One way, you have capped ArPen and whatever other stats, and the other way you have capped ArPen, whatever other stats, and an extra 170 agi. How is the second not clearly superior?

The EP value of ArP won't be the same at the cap.

Even if 1400 ArP after the patch is equivalent to 1232 ArP before the patch, 1399 after the patch is not equivalent to 1231 before the patch, and thus 1 ArP later is not equivalent to 1 ArP now, regardless of how much ArP you have.

Does anybody have an estimate of approx when it will be optimal to switch from Agi to ArP gems after the nerf? Obviously using the spreadsheet would be optimal, but an estimated rule of thumb up until the nerf was that you can switch your gemming at ~200 ArP just from gear (provided you have a sensible amount of gem slots as well) and either Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone. Is there any new potential estimate, or will the spreadsheet reveal all?

I plugged in some hypothetical numbers in the spreadsheet (very high AP, crit, haste) and ensured it was not using rupture (no 4pc t8, evis glyph and spec). I equipped mjolnir and set ArP close to the soft cap. It's probably about the most ideal situation for ArP to win in, and it didn't. I could only get it to 1.97 tops. Maybe tweaking the numbers could make up the difference, I'm not sure.

Going without the mjolnir and setting ArP to about 1000 brought it ahead, and you probably aren't going to reach that with any reasonable set of gear.

So it's difficult to find any situation whatsoever in which gemming for ArP is worthwhile. There may be one, but I wouldn't go looking for it. Just gem for Agi or AP unless the spreadsheet tells you otherwise, but I doubt it will.

If i understand correctly, it went from 125 to 110. A reduction of 15/125 = 12%. I think we are still on the same numbers...

That could very well be it, I posted it because I thought that the previous notes said that they were reducing it by 15% but come to think of it there *were* no previous notes were there? It was just players reporting a reduction on the PTR and GC confirming it. Sorry for the confusion.

what are the hypothetical numbers? could you elaborate ?
I plugged my current 'rupture-free test gear' into spreadsheet with fixed 3.2.2 ArP values and at current 545 ArP rating i get from gear + MR, ArP AEP is higher than agi.
most certainly I will swtich back to 4t8 once 3.2.2 hits thou, as my gear level is too low for making rupture-free cycles any upgrade.

It takes 1400 ArP on ptr right now to cap, just as it did when it was first noticed, which is around a 12% nerf. They just added the notification of the nerf, they didnt change it.

Correct;

The 12% nerf represents original 100% efficiency, buffed to 125%, reduced to 110%. 125*0.88 (12% nerf) = 110%.

The 15% you may have heard previously was reduction from 125 to 110 (by subtraction; 15%)

-removed quote-

I was a bit curious on the discussion about weapon swapping posted before. To me the MP change definitely would allow room for you to swap out daggers (assuming you have another OH dagger equivalent to that of your current) while the DP is ticking but has anyone done any analysis on what the mutilate DPS would look like if you did not weapon switch? If blizz made the changes to bring mutilate's DPS closer to that of combat how close are we getting? I would like to think that weapon swapping is not something Blizzard had in mind when they decided to make these changes as Aldriana pointed out before.