On the other hand, there are some rather obvious placeholders in some of the other set bonuses - for instance, the druid resto 2pc and boomkin 4pc are either very poorly worded or placeholders
Wild growth ticks for less heals than the previous tick so the 2pc just means that each tick will be as powerful as the previous
As for the set bonuses I really like the 2 piece because its a passive buff and means i can't screw it up. The 4 piece will be a nice dps gain but unfortunately its an active bonus. I guess I will have to start working TotT into a steady rotation instead of using it when it was convenient
I guess I will have to start working TotT into a steady rotation instead of using it when it was convenient
You aren't alone in this conduct. As much as rogues all know in theory that using it on cooldown with a partner wins out, it's just not ensconced into the rotations of many rogues. Going through parses shows a disappointingly low conversion rate on a fight that doesn't require it on a timed, tactical way. If nothing else, with this 4p I'll bet dollars to donuts that I'll never see a missed opportunity for Tricks in the logs again.
I'm pretty disappointed on the whole with these set bonuses. I'd like to think this isn't a "grass is greener" scenario but in vent last night, most of the class chatter was excited about their bonuses. Maybe I'm subconsciously hoping for a DK-4pt9-esque set bonus in our final tier.
I understand that there are different dpsers in a raid than rogues. I will be tricking to them or tank, and yes i will enjoy my 15 energy on 30 seconds, however that is it, there is no bonus dps for me, and the gain for the raid is exactly 1/2 of what could have been were there 2 rogues of similar output. So yes, the value of that ability is drastically lowered, however it remains a semi important part of a rogues rotation.
Now for the 2 set, if it is 1/8th of the time, it will not magically improve HATs dps for the following reason:
Right now, whether you play combat, muti or hat, the combo point generation is similar and in that order. Yes combat is the slowest, but muti is very close to hat. Now imagine all 3 specs benefiting of the 2 set bonus, this will just be marginal improvement for all of them, not a way to save HAT. I dont see Hat rogues using 2x more finishers, or even 150% more atleast than the other specs....not after the nerf.
The 4 piece will be a nice dps gain but unfortunately its an active bonus. I guess I will have to start working TotT into a steady rotation instead of using it when it was convenient
Would it be worthwhile just to "macro" it with Mutilate or Sinister Strike (which you'd be spamming anyway) to target another rogue, the tank, or whomever? I don't believe it activates the GCD, so doing this wouldn't disrupt your current rotation, and thus save you the trouble of having to think about another button.
I understand that there are different dpsers in a raid than rogues. I will be tricking to them or tank, and yes i will enjoy my 15 energy on 30 seconds, however that is it, there is no bonus dps for me, and the gain for the raid is exactly 1/2 of what could have been were there 2 rogues of similar output. So yes, the value of that ability is drastically lowered, however it remains a semi important part of a rogues rotation.
It's exactly proportional to the number of rogues. What you're saying is like saying, "The benefit of Sinister Strike is exactly 1/2 of what could have been were there 2 rogues of similar output."
Would it be worthwhile just to "macro" it with Mutilate or Sinister Strike (which you'd be spamming anyway) to target another rogue, the tank, or whomever? I don't believe it activates the GCD, so doing this wouldn't disrupt your current rotation, and thus save you the trouble of having to think about another button.
Tricks of the Trade does activate the GCD; macro'ing it to another ability is a fast road to failure, don't even try. As a rogue you have something like three or four buttons to push as it is unless you need to put up EA or something. One more button to push (that you should be pushing anyway) is not a major headache.
Edit to add that the Black Magic Enchant has changed to a proc of 250 haste rating. Assuming the rest stays the same that's 250 rating for 10 seconds every ~35 seconds for an average of around 71 haste rating.
Would it be worthwhile just to "macro" it with Mutilate or Sinister Strike (which you'd be spamming anyway) to target another rogue, the tank, or whomever? I don't believe it activates the GCD, so doing this wouldn't disrupt your current rotation, and thus save you the trouble of having to think about another button.
I wouldn't macro it. 1) It's on the gcd 2) I could see some very angry rogues in your raid(if you have any) when you go in to attack and all of a sudden they have aggro.
Well no, working it into the rotation isn't a big deal once I get the 4 piece bonus because it will have a real noticeable difference on my dps and energy regen. The way TotT works now however I usually try to time it where its convenient ie I'm not working on generating combo points to refresh something like SnD or rupture, or Im not getting my combo points and refreshes in order for adrenaline rush or killing spree thats about to become available.
The one drawback I can see from this bonus is using tricks blindly on a dpser. If it gets worked into the rotation where its pushed automatically without thinking when its up then some serious aggro issues could occur. Also depending on how my rotation is going I can have energy capping issues if I start using TotT without first checking how much energy I have. So yeah its not too big of a problem but its not going to just be button to push, its another button that you want to use every 30 seconds but in reality there are things to consider before you push it.
Well, keep in mind that the bonus applies no matter who you're Tricks-ing. As long as you are currently using Tricks on cooldown, the 200 EP number in in the right ballpark.
That said: you're right that there are times when you can't, so on some fights the damage gain might be a bit smaller. But all set bonuses are circumstantial at some level - even the 4/5 T8 was an incredible bonus on the whole but in situations where Rupture was inappropriate or unusable, it's benefit was minimal. So I'm not sure how big a deal it is that this one is a bit circumstantial as well.
Really, my main argument as to why it might change is that it's a bit... boring. Like, our cycles aren't going to change. We're going to play exactly the same way we do now. It's just we'll do it with slightly more energy. And given that a number of classes seem to be getting significantly "cooler" set bonuses - that actually change the way you play the class at some level, be it by giving extra tank cooldowns or bringing abilities off cooldowns faster for Ret Pallies or changing Eclipse timing for Boomkins. Basically, the other classes get set bonuses that, like, they're going to notice, and adjust their play around. Whereas we're going to play exactly the way we always have, it'll just work slightly better. And I can see Blizzard wanting to make it a bit more... distinctive... than it currently is.
But then, I can also see them leaving it exactly the way it is. We'll just have to see what happens.
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The 4/5 T10 gives +15 energy rather than -15 energy every 30 seconds; this is thus double the damage difference one gets by removing TotT from the cycle. Doing so takes my damage from 8279.3 to 8371.3, a swing of just over 90 DPS; thus, the set bonus is worth roughly twice that (180 DPS), making it about 200 EP. Alternately, it's triple the energy regen one gets from T8 2/5, and (were I using DP still) that set bonus would be worth around 67.2 EP, 3 times which is... again, about 200 EP.
let me get this straight... your calculation depends on TotT on CD usage - But in the case that I would've never used TotT and start it now with t10-4pc -> the dps boost would be only ~100 EP - correct? This number would raise of course if I decide to share the dps bonus with another rogue...
still sucks big time... 30 energy / minute with the loss of two gcd isn't enough for a 4pc bonus imho - and you can't even guarantee that you'll get that 30 energy/minute - there'll be circumstances which prevent that in bossfights.
As you mentioned - other classes get significantly better/cooler bonuses... I wasn't satisfied with the t9 (especialy 4pc) and atm with this numbers I've got a bad feeling on t10...
I am surprised that so many rogues do not have TotT as part of their standard rotation. I asked a fellow Rogue in my guild why he wasn't using TotT about half-way through one of our raids and he replied - "I forgot".
I generally TotT the main tank at the start of each fight then subsequently TotT another DPS (preferably another Rogue) if the fight takes more than 30 seconds. I have my TotT macro set up to apply TotT in the follow order: 1) Mouse-Over Target (need to be careful where your mouse is); 2) Focus Target (the player I intend to TotT the most); 3) Target of Target (in case my Focus target is dead and I'm not moused over anyone).
Another perspective to the reasoning behind a Tricks-oriented bonus would be that - honestly - the rotation for Ruptureless Combat is perhaps the most boring one since Tri-spec Hemo. Furthermore, I guess Blizzard realized they can't keep Rupture viable in its current form (or the current form of ArP) without going even more overboard in terms of set bonii. So, at the least the Tricks bonus certainly spices things up and awards using our most notable utility ability (like said before, only a small portion of rogues actually uses it currently on a regular basis), which I can't really say is a bad thing. Sure, you'll go nuts trying to take 100% advantage out of it, but it's not like everyone strived for full Rupture uptime with 4pc-t8 either. (And actually I was quite happy myself that we didn't get a random haste/cooldown-affecting proc.)
still sucks big time... 30 energy / minute with the loss of two gcd isn't enough for a 4pc bonus imho - and you can't even guarantee that you'll get that 30 energy/minute - there'll be circumstances which prevent that in bossfights.
I wasn't aware that rogues are GCD locked. owait, we aren't. If you aren't Tricksing every CD as is, and SnD is almost falling off, so you're not using it, you are doing something wrong as Mutilate. and as for Combat, when its giving you 15 energy, it just makes it that much easier to get 2-3CP to refresh SnD.
The one drawback I can see from this bonus is using tricks blindly on a dpser. If it gets worked into the rotation where its pushed automatically without thinking when its up then some serious aggro issues could occur. Also depending on how my rotation is going I can have energy capping issues if I start using TotT without first checking how much energy I have. So yeah its not too big of a problem but its not going to just be button to push, its another button that you want to use every 30 seconds but in reality there are things to consider before you push it.
I don't regularly raid with another rogue (well, much at all, to be honest), so I don't have much experience in coordinating exchanging TotT with another rogue. How often do other rogues regularly employed this tactic now, and what's involved? Also, given the kind of threat tanks generate these days and the amount of DPS done in cutting edge raiding, how much risk is there that an unreciprocated Tricks on another rogue or other DPS would risk pulling a boss's aggro from the tank? I get the impression that it probably is generally a Bad Idea to use it on anyone other than another rogue or the tank.
Would spamming it on the tank for the full 30 energy per minute outweigh coordinating with another rogue to take advantage of the damage bonus while sacrificing some of the energy gain?
Lately Blizz has been giving many fights a burn phase, making me think they will not stop doing that. This may change the value of the 4pc bonus considerably. On the one hand, if you wait for a burn phase (Jaraxxus, Twins, Icehowl...) then you are most likely not using it every CD and do not take advantage of the bonus in it's entirety. On the other hand, it can be viewed as a mini CD for 30 energy during those burn phases where I think even the "lazier" rogues use tricks, as well as incentive to use it for those burn phases too!
On a more pleasant note, it looks like the old question of whether to tricks the tank before the pull so it costs no energy, or after you get up SnD will be answered with the set bonus.
A third ramification of the bonus is energy capping. Many rogues end up in situations from time to time where they need to burn off some energy before rupturing or envenoming so you don't cap. TotT used to be a great way to avoid this, but now it's going to be counter productive. This also ties into whether to use it on CD or wait for the circumstantially smarter time to use it. If used on CD, you just have to make sure not to be close to capping before using it (similar to KSpree).
I don't regularly raid with another rogue (well, much at all, to be honest), so I don't have much experience in coordinating exchanging TotT with another rogue. How often do other rogues regularly employed this tactic now, and what's involved? Also, given the kind of threat tanks generate these days and the amount of DPS done in cutting edge raiding, how much risk is there that an unreciprocated Tricks on another rogue or other DPS would risk pulling a boss's aggro from the tank? I get the impression that it probably is generally a Bad Idea to use it on anyone other than another rogue or the tank.
Would spamming it on the tank for the full 30 energy per minute outway coordinating with another rogue to take advantage of the damage bonus while sacrificing some of the energy gain?
Any good raid with 2 or more rogues should be trading tricks (there may be situations where this is n/a but as a generality you should be using it, imo) Threat has never been an issue for me except in certain high dps fights(spores in naxx, speed kill hodir, where your dps is artificially inflated and even then its pretty hard to pull aggro with any decent tank). We already receive a passive threat reduction so for most fights if a rogue is near the tanks threat the tank is doing something wrong. As for other dps even without threat reductions for the most part it is safe to use as long as you have half a brain and check that he's not at 105% threat.
For me when Im raiding I use tricks on another rogue and if there are no rogues then the top melee dps. I use it on the tank on the pull and if there are any aggro wipes. I know fighting anub recently I got a tricks from another rogue right when I popped blade fury and adrenaline rush, within 2 seconds I was about to over aggro the tank, which is very frustrating as now i have wasted 2 dps cool downs and either have to try hold back my aggro with a feint or just dump and blow my vanish.
Just putting tricks on the tank is an easy fix but 15% bonus damage is tough to lose in progression fights
I don't regularly raid with another rogue (well, much at all, to be honest), so I don't have much experience in coordinating exchanging TotT with another rogue. How often do other rogues regularly employed this tactic now, and what's involved? Also, given the kind of threat tanks generate these days and the amount of DPS done in cutting edge raiding, how much risk is there that an unreciprocated Tricks on another rogue or other DPS would risk pulling a boss's aggro from the tank? I get the impression that it probably is generally a Bad Idea to use it on anyone other than another rogue or the tank.
Would spamming it on the tank for the full 30 energy per minute outway coordinating with another rogue to take advantage of the damage bonus while sacrificing some of the energy gain?
The tank will get 1 or more misdirects + 1 or more tricks that should be more then enough threat to last him through the fight. As mutilate you will most likely also vanish around 20 seconds into the fight. So tricksing another rogue should be enough. If your tricksing other dps just give it to different raiders throughout the fight. It helps to talk to your fellow raiders as well to see if they have any issues with their threat. And next to that pay attention to aggro resets throughout in fights.
I wasn't aware that rogues are GCD locked. owait, we aren't. If you aren't Tricksing every CD as is, and SnD is almost falling off, so you're not using it, you are doing something wrong as Mutilate. and as for Combat, when its giving you 15 energy, it just makes it that much easier to get 2-3CP to refresh SnD.
in fact there are situations where gcd's are "free"... but I seriously want to see you when adrenalin rush is up and you're struggeling not to cap your energy and then the 30 sek cd is free - if you push with t10-4pc in that situation the energy would clear cap and you would've wasted this precious "bonus"...
And acutally I'm talking about combat...
In mutilate cycles is much more room for these gcd's....
but in fact that wasn't my point - roughly 30 energy/minute is the point... the two gcd's are just a outgrowth which makes TotT-4pc sometimes useless.
It helps to talk to your fellow raiders as well to see if they have any issues with their threat. And next to that pay attention to aggro resets throughout in fights.
I've run plenty of things without another rogue to trade with and in the end it's really just a matter of letting your target know that they're going to be your target. If your target knows ahead of time what's going on there shouldn't be any problems. Believe it or not, Paladins are a very convenient target as their DPS is good and HoS gives them some on-demand breathing room.
The benefit of swapping with another rogue is that while they get your threat, you get their threat. However, unless you are really running into agro issues, I would say that the optimal use of tricks is to use it on the highest dps that will be in range, usually melee. Even tho I usually raid with 2 other rogues, I use tricks on a dk, simply because he does more dps than the other rogues, so the raid dps is increased more than using it on a rogue. Occasionally we have an issue if I accidentally use tricks on him at the start of a fight instead of the tank, but that would still apply if I used it on a rogue.
One downside of this set bonus will be not being able to use tricks to dump a little energy to prevent energy capping while waiting the last second for rupture to run out.
If you're having issues with energy capping waiting for rupture, chances are you have time to envenom and build up 4 combo points again. With 4 piece t10, this could actually makes this solution even better, because you'll build up the combo points even faster.
Of course, this is assuming you aren't already pooling for another reason. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not great with finesse, aren't as good as lots of people, and haven't done anything more than napkin math to back up my statements.
The 'Best' solution, from a personal dps standpoint, to not having another rogue to trade Tricks with is a Blood DK - Hysteria and Tricks don't stack. We can't cast our buff on ourselves, they can cast it on anyone, so it's easy to trade the two, and the net effect of the two is roughly similar.
in fact there are situations where gcd's are "free"... but I seriously want to see you when adrenalin rush is up and you're struggeling not to cap your energy and then the 30 sek cd is free - if you push with t10-4pc in that situation the energy would clear cap and you would've wasted this precious "bonus"...
Tricks before you pop AR, zomg, problem solved.
but in fact that wasn't my point - roughly 30 energy/minute is the point... the two gcd's are just a outgrowth which makes TotT-4pc sometimes useless.
No, a net gain of 30 energy per minute is not useless. How you could possibly think that more energy is useless is beyond me.
Using the T10 4pc bonus wont be wasted if you use it properly. Its like defensive driving. You never look at the car in front of you, always look 2-3 cars up because if they have a problem then the distance will give you enough time to react. If you use AR then use tricks, then you were not looking ahead properly. It would be like using KS when AR is running. Simple fix. Dont use AR until after 1)KS 2)Tricks.
10/08/09, 9:54 AM
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