See, imagine a rogue doing 6k dps in 10mans being single rogue (very reasonable number even without great buffs).
Imagine a fight like patch or xt which lasts 5 min.
The total rough output from the rogue is 300sec X 6000 dps = 1,800,000 damage
Now imagine what happens if he had 30 energy each 1 min extra and he spends it on SS only. This will yield 150 energy or almost 4 SS. Now imagine an SS hitting average of 7k (currently average ss over several fights are 6k, lets say this went up 1k thanks to stats). Now lets be optimistic and say that 7000x4=30,000 (maybe a lucky crit somewhere?)
So without the dps buff to the rogue, the total dps value this 4 set t10 has to us is 30,000/1,800,000=3/180=1.67%
Even if the number goes up to 2% because lets say more optimal use of the energy will be 3 SS and 1 timely Eviscerate, it still SUCKS for 10man setups with 1 rogue.
Anyways, i am dropping the subject and accepting the reality since i just read that blizz has just confirmed these are the tier bonuses....along with the ugly visuals.
You're ignoring secondary effects such as the extra energy speeding up cycles, extra poison procs and other effects. Aldriana already posted a good comparison of the T10 bonuses and did a quick model of the 4pc bonus by backing TotT out of the current beta spreadsheet. The result of that is significantly higher than your estimation.
oh, i am aware of the equivalence points value that Aldriana calculated, however my point is valid and if you read my post you will understand why. And yes the calculation i made is rough, just the way i intended it to be.
I am a huge fan of Aldriana's work and in no way i desire to undermine it nor think i can do a better job.
However, make no mistake that when your rogue is standing in fire, there is interrupts going on, you are about to switch a target, your SnD is about to drop, the LAST thing will be to try maximize the benefit of TotT, you will rather press the button on its cool down and enjoy your 15 energy per 30sec(in no rogue traded it with you). That is all you get, and this is the fact.
SO yes roughly it is 2-3% increase at best in real 10 man gaming, probably can hit 5% if glyph it, have another rogue with you, all buffs, 100% on the target and you are somehow magically perfect on your button pressing.
If ToT is preformed on CD for a 300 second fight, that would be 300 energy added for the length of the fight (15+(-15)=30 energy every 30 seconds). Thats 7.5 extra SS preformed. SS hits for around 4.5k, that would mean 33750extra damage. 50% of those 7.5 SS will add 1 additional CP for a total of 11.25 CP added.
Thus ~2 extra evis per 300 second fight with an average Evis hitting around 8k for an additional 16k (33750 + 16,000= 49,750 damage) Then add in WP damage, which will trigger for 50% of those 9.5 extra MH swings (4.75 extra WP procs at ~800 a hit which is 3,800 damage)
For a total of 53,550 extra damage. In a 5min fight, we roughly do around 2.5 million damage based of one of my parse for 25man Lord Jara normal which was a lil over 5mins. Which does come out to roughly ~2% extra damage. Scanning over other dps bonuses that other classes are getting, and I think this falls in line with their increases.
As a quick followup to Kaubel's post (which you should all listen to and obey), I'm going to take a minute to explain *why* the entire discussion in the last page or two was fucking stupid.
1) Unless there is a specific time/moment in the fight when threat is of particular concern - for instance, establishing aggro on a new add or whatever - you should already be using Tricks on cooldown, as one of the following will always be true:
a. The tank needs more aggro to keep DPS from pulling. In this case, you should tricks the tank so everyone can continue going all out and no pull aggro.
b. All DPS are fine from a threat perspective. In this case you should tricks another DPS, as the damage boost they get from it is larger than the amount you lose by Tricksing.
Note that in either case, Tricksing is a *personal* DPS loss but a *raid* DPS gain, and, as such, should be done unless you're a selfish asshole.
2) Note that this has nothing to do with the number of rogues in the raid. One frequently Tricks other rogues as they're high DPS and always in range of you, but any other DPS gives the same *raid* DPS benefit. Trading Tricks with another rogue does not increase the DPS value of the ability - your Tricks is still a damage loss for you and a gain for them, while there's is a loss for them and a gain for you - in the net, you both gain, but the total benefit to *raid* DPS is about twice what you'd gain from Tricksing by yourself - there is no exceptional rogue/rogue synergy.
3) Thus, if you're *already* Tricksing on cooldown (as you should be), then the DPS benefit is as previously calculated. If you're *not* already Tricksing, the DPS benefit, while smaller on a *personal* basis, is larger on a *raid* basis, and, as such, works out to *more* total DPS benefit for your raid than the previous estimate.
4) The only time this is not true is, again, if there is need of specific Tricks at specific times that prevent you from using it on cooldown. There are a few fights where this is true. There are not very many.
If you'd like to make cogent, polite, well-reasoned arguments as to why this may not be an accurate assessment of the situation, you may do so. But if you're at all whiny, stupid, or misinformed, I will ruthlessly enforce Kaubel's ban on such. You have been warned.
It's interesting that they switched the bonuses around. If Aldriana's calculations are remotely accurate, they're making the 2-piece the significantly better bonus (perhaps they're working from the presumption that most rogues aren't tricksing every cooldown and will want to start, making the bonus' relative benefit smaller for those rogues). Regardless, this should make the transition to T10 a hell of a lot less painful than the transition to T9. Thank God for that.
While Aldriana's assumptions are likely generally correct, and their understanding of rogue mechanics is hardly able to be called into question, from a player and design point of view I still feel this is a lackluster and poorly thought out set bonus. While it's great to sit back and say "It's for the greater good!", as Aldriana has pointed out already, this is a personal dps loss to a class that is known for generally one thing, their personal dps. No other class has a set bonus at the moment that I can tell that would be considered a buff not to themselves in some way. It's hardly a stretch to understand why even under the most ideal of circumstances (which is what theorycrafting is about) this may prove to be a net gain overall for the raid, that the rogue intended will suffer the price of that gain. The majority of buff/debuff skills/spells out there don't require that player to give up something, there's always a class or spec that can do the same thing with no personal loss, I'm not sure why rogues should be any different. I also think the amount of situations where you seem to think this bonus wouldn't be beneficial is larger than you realize.
To clarify: the set bonus is a personal DPS boost regardless. If you haven't been tricksing already, the benefit is half for you and half for the raid, but it's still a DPS boost for you. If you view it from the perspective of someone not currently Tricksing on cooldown, it becomes a lot like the DK Tanking 4pc - it turns an ability you might not of been spamming into a new cooldown.
While Aldriana's assumptions are likely generally correct, and their understanding of rogue mechanics is hardly able to be called into question, from a player and design point of view I still feel this is a lackluster and poorly thought out set bonus. While it's great to sit back and say "It's for the greater good!", as Aldriana has pointed out already, this is a personal dps loss to a class that is known for generally one thing, their personal dps. No other class has a set bonus at the moment that I can tell that would be considered a buff not to themselves in some way. It's hardly a stretch to understand why even under the most ideal of circumstances (which is what theorycrafting is about) this may prove to be a net gain overall for the raid, that the rogue intended will suffer the price of that gain. The majority of buff/debuff skills/spells out there don't require that player to give up something, there's always a class or spec that can do the same thing with no personal loss, I'm not sure why rogues should be any different. I also think the amount of situations where you seem to think this bonus wouldn't be beneficial is larger than you realize.
I think, it's because of people whining about rogues were not delivering buffs to raid.
Blizzard starts to add Savage Combat / Master Poisoner ..then ToTT. I still remember how the rogues community thanks blizzard for giving rogues ToTT.
Now, with the T10, it's going to make the "ROUGES" to use ToTT as well.
The 'Best' solution, from a personal dps standpoint, to not having another rogue to trade Tricks with is a Blood DK - Hysteria and Tricks don't stack. We can't cast our buff on ourselves, they can cast it on anyone, so it's easy to trade the two, and the net effect of the two is roughly similar.
I believe that, unlike tricks of the trade, Hysteria can be cast by the deathknight on themselves, so they have no real need to be trading it with anyone.
Edit: I fail at reading comprehension while still on my first coffee of the day. You are of course correct, since they don't stack then I suppose a Deathknight could be induced to trade a buff that does damage to the target for one that does none.
It's interesting that they switched the bonuses around. If Aldriana's calculations are remotely accurate, they're making the 2-piece the significantly better bonus (perhaps they're working from the presumption that most rogues aren't tricksing every cooldown and will want to start, making the bonus' relative benefit smaller for those rogues). Regardless, this should make the transition to T10 a hell of a lot less painful than the transition to T9. Thank God for that.
I would imagine the main reason for making this swap was for PvP reasons. Wearing PvP gear with 2pc T10 (the 3CP proc) could create some burst for rogues that Blizzard doesn't want to have to deal with.
I would imagine the main reason for making this swap was for PvP reasons. Wearing PvP gear with 2pc T10 (the 3CP proc) could create some burst for rogues that Blizzard doesn't want to have to deal with.
I was thinking that 2pc T9 and the "original" 2pc T10 was looking like an interesting synergy of bonuses.
I would imagine the main reason for making this swap was for PvP reasons. Wearing PvP gear with 2pc T10 (the 3CP proc) could create some burst for rogues that Blizzard doesn't want to have to deal with.
The tricks of the trade bonus will most likely produce even more burst then the other set bonus could achieve. Especially in a pvp situation 15 energy every 30 seconds is huge. Combined with a glyphed tott you are looking at 15 energy/30 sec and a damage boost for your partner.
Objects are not deceiving, they are deception.
What we see what we hear, all that our sences present to us is a fiction no more real then a dream.
We can only know that which we believe, that is all we have.
The tricks of the trade bonus will most likely produce even more burst then the other set bonus could achieve. Especially in a pvp situation 15 energy every 30 seconds is huge. Combined with a glyphed tott you are looking at 15 energy/30 sec and a damage boost for your partner.
Your target is getting the boost regardless of the set bonus and 15 energy is not a free SS (or Mutilate/etc) without pooling (which slows your pressure).
What an extra 3 CPs does though is allow for two very quick Eviscerates and I think that's the reason for the switch. I'm not talking about 30 energy over the course of a minute, I'm talking about two full Eviscerates in the span of three globals which is the kind of burst that Blizzard doesn't like.
Well, it's worth noting that:
1) They have previously included some odd numbers in abilities, so I'm not sure I'd throw it out on that basis alone.
2) It's entirely possible that it's really 1/8 = 12.5%, and being rounded by the UI.
There has been an answer by Ghostcrawler regarding those "odd" numbers. I think the thread mainly deals with the mage bonus, but the answer seems to be targetted to all current T10 boni.
This doesn't say of course that any bonus will be changed, only that they might be.
Yes. It is much more work to create a spell in the first than to change numbers in it, so we often implement them in two steps: core functionality and number tweaking.
It may seem unpolished, but that's something you're going to encounter when dealing with betas, which is what a PTR build essentially is. Depending on when the data for the build gets pulled, we might be halfway through implementing something. The WoW team is far too large and churns out too much content for someone to go office to office to make sure everyone's stuff is 100% done and working before triggering a PTR build. We absolutely do that before making a retail build.
Right - as I previously noted, there were some obvious placeholder numbers, but it wasn't at all clear that this one of them - that is, the set bonuses were reasonably well tuned for how accessible they were.
Note, however, the word "were". I would argue that while a 90 EP set bonus is quite reasonable for a 2/5 set bonus, it is a bit weaker than 4/5 set bonuses usually are; similarly, 200 EP for a 4/5 is quite reasonable, but for a 2/5 it feels a bit strong. With the numbers in their current form I suspect we arise at a situation where it's critically important that one obtains the 2/5 set bonus but very few people will bother with the 4/5. The exact details, of course, will depend on whether or not there exists offset gear of higher ilvl than the set pieces, and how relatively hard they are to obtain. That is: in T7 and T8, there existed offset gear a full tier in quality ahead of the set pieces; and in T9, while set pieces of the highest ilvl exists, it's incredibly hard to obtain. If either of these is true in T10, the T10 set bonus, in it's current form, will be largely ignored - either because you can do better with offset, or because the difficulty of obtaining 4/5 of the highest-ilvl set gear is incommensurate with the difficulty of obtaining it.
Hence, if Blizzard intends us to utilize or care about the 4/5 set bonus, one of two things will need to occur; either 1) Set pieces of equal ilvl to the best offset gear need to be relatively easy to obtain, or
2) The 4/5 needs to have its proc rate buffed, possibly at the expense of the quality of the 2/5.
Given the acknowledged placeholder-ness of the numbers we've received, my guess is that we may now see the second occur - assuming we don't see one or both set bonuses redesigned entirely, which strikes me as a definite possibility, if a somewhat unlikely one.
While 200EP is indeed very reasonable compared to our previous sets, I'm abit worried when comparing to other classes. Judging by the Enhancement bonus to Shamanistic Rage, Mage bonus to Mirror Images and the Deathknight bonus to runes, the goal seem to be 3% increase to sustained damage.
The rogue bonus to Tricks will currently give 1energy per second. Pulling some numbers from your spreadsheet, combat rogues are currently looking at 16.2 energy per sec including Vitality and Combat Potency. Thus, the bonus is a 6.2% increase to all energy related damage. In the spreadsheep model Sinister Strike and Eviscerate damage make up 34% of my total damage. Going over a few WoL parses, this number is properly closer to 30% but let's go with 34% for now. 0.34*0.062=0.021 or 2.1%.
This is naturally in T9 gear, but traditionally I believe we see auto attack make up a larger part of our damage the better gear we have. Either way, that bonus is strickly inferior in terms of sustained damage and the nature of it sure makes it worse for burn phases aswell.
Last but not least the bonus to Tricks has an unfortunate sideeffect for our gameplay. You'd want to use Tricks after hitting the mob a few times rather than pre-casting it as otherwise you'd waste the bonus for the first 30 seconds. After all, pre-casting it has been fairly usefull on a number of fights this far; Massive Crashes, Yogg's brain room, shield on Twins and for misdirecting of adds on AA.
A flat 10 seconds damage bonus instead of the tweak to the energy cost would give the exact same incentive to max the uptime of tricks but without adding even more conditionals to an ability which is already abit clunky to use.
That may be true - but it's also largely irrelevant. I'd be careful not to put too much weight on the exact quality of our set bonuses. They are a part of class balance, to be sure... but they're far from the *only* part of class balance. So yes, enhancement shaman might get a 3% set bonus while ours is only 2%... but if the current tier is any indication, we'll still beat them on both sustained and burst DPS. Hence - okay, their set bonus is better, but our class is still advantaged in many situations, so there's no real issue here.
Like, the thing to keep in mind is that all classes do not scale equally; assuming decently itemized gear some scale faster or slower than others. To some extent they fix this by changes with each patch or whatever... but quality of itemization - including set bonuses - is another. So the fact that our set bonus isn't as good may mean it's poorly designed... or it might mean that the class is scaling better, such that other classes need a better-scaling set bonus in order to compete.
Moreover, I'd argue that large set bonuses aren't always a good thing. I mean, we've had our experience with a 3%+ set bonus in the T8 4/5, and while I can't speak for everyone, I think that set bonus is sort of a nuisance. All other things being equal, if I had the choice of getting increased damage via raw stats or via some contrived set bonus, I'd take it in itemization every time - it tends to be less circumstantial, easier to optimize around, and easier to upgrade down the road.
So, yes, other classes may be getting larger set bonuses. But I don't think we have too much to worry about in terms of class balance if enhancement shaman are getting 3% bonuses to our 2% - on the whole, we seem to be scaling a bit better anyway, so the situation is fine as it stands.
Which is not to say there aren't classes that *do* seem to be outscaling us, some of which *do* have better set bonuses than us, and some of which will also be gaining access to a legendary in the next patch. And a reasonable argument might be made that that's a concern. But the set bonus imbalances are, if you will, the least part of that equation - that problem is significantly larger than slight differences in set bonuses might indicate.
My biggest issue with the rogue T10 set bonuses isn't their quality, but how bland they are. Other classes get some genuinely interesting set bonuses that change their rotations or how they play. We get a good 2pc set bonus that powers up an ability any good rogue ALREADY uses, and a 4pc that, while not terrible, is also nothing special, and unless improved, people will likely just skip it outright.
It would be more interesting if they tweaked the 4pc bonus to be more like Ruthlessness in its wording (and to stack), allowing you to get a 100% chance for a free CP with the set bonus + 3/3 Ruthlessness. That at least would be a minor playstyle change.
I noticed you used the term "an ability any good rogue already uses," but you also have to keep in mind that apart from the higher end raiding guilds, alot of players do not play their classes to their full potential and take advantage of all their abilities.
You never know, in their recent data collections, Blizzard may have been monitoring the frequency of abilities being used and found that the majority of players arnt using tricks as often, and thus, created a set bonus that specifically gives incentive to use the ability more often. As far as the 4pc goes...it would have been nice to see something a little more original but you never know, there is still alot of time for changes before 3.3
I guess this is the right spot to ask, as it is indeed an incoming change. Anyone of you changed race to optimize dps yet? From which race did you switch and what guided your decision. Basically just curious about the reasons.
I went with Orc, strictly because the only hard fight currently ingame is Anub, which in turn has a large AOE portion. I can't see Troll Berserking helping significantly with that, whereas I can macro Blood Fury in with Blade Flurry and use during every AOE phase. Will it be a huge difference? No. Will it be more than the "nothing" I got with Undead? Of course. And when we had a 2% wipe last week, I'll take the small boosts where I can get them.
Can anyone clarify the new WotF for undead. My friend thinks it just a 45 second cooldoown by itself. But I think it is a 45 second cooldown along with trinket. Kinda like how Every Man for Themselves is but undead version.
10/08/09, 5:53 PM
Similar Threads
