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Old 09/11/09, 7:11 AM   #346
cougarhawk
Von Kaiser
 
cougarhawk's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
Originally Posted by Rugrud View Post
If i understand correctly, it went from 125 to 110. A reduction of 15/125 = 12%. I think we are still on the same numbers...
That could very well be it, I posted it because I thought that the previous notes said that they were reducing it by 15% but come to think of it there *were* no previous notes were there? It was just players reporting a reduction on the PTR and GC confirming it. Sorry for the confusion.

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Old 09/11/09, 7:16 AM   #347
Batory
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by MasterDinadan View Post
I plugged in some hypothetical numbers in the spreadsheet (very high AP, crit, haste) and ensured it was not using rupture (no 4pc t8, evis glyph and spec). I equipped mjolnir and set ArP close to the soft cap. It's probably about the most ideal situation for ArP to win in, and it didn't. I could only get it to 1.97 tops. Maybe tweaking the numbers could make up the difference, I'm not sure.

Going without the mjolnir and setting ArP to about 1000 brought it ahead, and you probably aren't going to reach that with any reasonable set of gear.

So it's difficult to find any situation whatsoever in which gemming for ArP is worthwhile. There may be one, but I wouldn't go looking for it. Just gem for Agi or AP unless the spreadsheet tells you otherwise, but I doubt it will.
what are the hypothetical numbers? could you elaborate ?
I plugged my current 'rupture-free test gear' into spreadsheet with fixed 3.2.2 ArP values and at current 545 ArP rating i get from gear + MR, ArP AEP is higher than agi.
most certainly I will swtich back to 4t8 once 3.2.2 hits thou, as my gear level is too low for making rupture-free cycles any upgrade.

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Old 09/11/09, 9:43 AM   #348
Wodahs
Don Flamenco
 
Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by cougarhawk View Post
For the benefit of those working on modeling the incoming changes, it looks like the ArP nerf was rolled back by 3% in the latest build:



As I recall, the early numbers on the 15% seemed to indicate that soft/hard capping rupture/evis cycles (and the viable permutations thereof) were coming out about equal. I'd be interested to see if this tweak pushes one of them noticeably ahead.
It takes 1400 ArP on ptr right now to cap, just as it did when it was first noticed, which is around a 12% nerf. They just added the notification of the nerf, they didnt change it.

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Old 09/11/09, 10:26 AM   #349
Istaril
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Wodahs View Post
It takes 1400 ArP on ptr right now to cap, just as it did when it was first noticed, which is around a 12% nerf. They just added the notification of the nerf, they didnt change it.
Correct;

The 12% nerf represents original 100% efficiency, buffed to 125%, reduced to 110%. 125*0.88 (12% nerf) = 110%.

The 15% you may have heard previously was reduction from 125 to 110 (by subtraction; 15%)

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Old 09/11/09, 11:16 AM   #350
tedoubledy
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dawnbringer
-removed quote-

I was a bit curious on the discussion about weapon swapping posted before. To me the MP change definitely would allow room for you to swap out daggers (assuming you have another OH dagger equivalent to that of your current) while the DP is ticking but has anyone done any analysis on what the mutilate DPS would look like if you did not weapon switch? If blizz made the changes to bring mutilate's DPS closer to that of combat how close are we getting? I would like to think that weapon swapping is not something Blizzard had in mind when they decided to make these changes as Aldriana pointed out before.

Last edited by tedoubledy : 09/11/09 at 1:35 PM.

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Old 09/11/09, 1:35 PM   #351
MasterDinadan
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Staghelm
All of that has been on the PTR for a while now. None of it is new.

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Old 09/13/09, 12:37 PM   #352
Icea
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Well the ArPen nerf should at least make combat rogues consider when it will be beneficial to let go of the tier 8 four set bonus (critical ruptures), since it primarily is the stats (including ArPen) and not the set bonuses that will make tier 9 superior to tier 8.

I would gain roughly 340 dps from the 149 ArPen on Tier 9 (legs and shoulders). And after patch 3.22 the same 149 ArPen rating will be roughly 300 dps (hence legs and shoulders may not be the first items you should grab when changing from tier 8 to tier 9).
For me it havent been beneficial to change my tier 8 to tier 9 untill Ive got at least four pieces and this wont be changed by the ArPen nerf, but I could imagine that other ppl with different gear/stats than me might had to rethink in which order to get their tier 9, and which parts to get first?

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Old 09/15/09, 2:55 AM   #353
badlady
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Arathor (EU)
FoK Nerf:
I have read the last 5 pages, I didn't see much about this.

Anyone have a idea how much % it will affect a combat rogue and mutilate rogue?
(ofc depending on amount of targets)

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Old 09/15/09, 6:52 AM   #354
StoicRoivaS
Piston Honda
 
StoicRoivaS's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by badlady View Post
FoK Nerf:
I have read the last 5 pages, I didn't see much about this.

Anyone have a idea how much % it will affect a combat rogue and mutilate rogue?
(ofc depending on amount of targets)
Pull up a log or recount data on whatever it is your run regularly (ToC-25, Ulduar, etc), find your total damage done, find the percentage of your damage that was done by FoK, multiply these to find the damage done by FoK (or just look it up, it's there). Take this damage done and multiply it by 0.70 (70%, representing the 30% nerf). This is how much damage you're doing with FoK on a full run post-nerf. Subtract this value from your original FoK damage number to see how much damage you're losing from the nerf. Subtract that number from your total damage to see how much damage you're doing in total post-nerf. Take this number and divide it by your original total damage to see what percentage of your original damage you're now doing, post-nerf, and finally subtract this percentage from 100% to see "how much % it will affect a combat rogue and mutilate rogue?"


The math lesson is free, but this forum isn't really the place...

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Old 09/15/09, 2:08 PM   #355
Kabuo
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Stonemaul
This math lesson is not exactly right. It does not take into account the poison damage caused by fok, which would be harder to model, especially if the mobs are up more than 3 seconds allowing DP to give 1 energy for anyone using 2 piece.

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Old 09/15/09, 4:54 PM   #356
Wodahs
Don Flamenco
 
Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Kabuo View Post
This math lesson is not exactly right. It does not take into account the poison damage caused by fok, which would be harder to model, especially if the mobs are up more than 3 seconds allowing DP to give 1 energy for anyone using 2 piece.
No, poison is counted as poison damage and not fok damage. If you cut fok damage by the % nerf, and compare that to total fight damage, you will see how high a % nerf it is to overall damage.

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Old 09/15/09, 5:22 PM   #357
Kabuo
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Stonemaul
I'm sorry. Of course that is right regarding how much less damage you're doing over all. I thought he wanted to know how much less aoe damage fok would be doing post nerf. You are, of course, right that he can take parses of overall data and compare them to see how much less damage he is doing, assuming everything else remains constant. This of course is also answered if you count just fok, but the poison damage associated with fok is a significant portion of the damage you do overall. So it's not like fok will be 70% as effective, which is what I thought he was worried about.

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Old 09/16/09, 3:54 AM   #358
StoicRoivaS
Piston Honda
 
StoicRoivaS's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dunemaul
Originally Posted by Kabuo View Post
I'm sorry. Of course that is right regarding how much less damage you're doing over all. I thought he wanted to know how much less aoe damage fok would be doing post nerf. You are, of course, right that he can take parses of overall data and compare them to see how much less damage he is doing, assuming everything else remains constant. This of course is also answered if you count just fok, but the poison damage associated with fok is a significant portion of the damage you do overall. So it's not like fok will be 70% as effective, which is what I thought he was worried about.
Well, in all actuality, FoK is exactly 70% as effective, it's just that, as you pointed out, with FoK comes poisons, and each time you hit that button, you're getting more than just Fan. FoK will still apply poisons in the same way, for the same amount, post nerf, but the damage component on the attack itself will be 30% lower. So if your fan damage was 10 damage and each application of wound poison was 5 damage, pre-nerf, it would go from 20 damage total down to 17, not 14. Hopefully this is clear enough.

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Old 09/21/09, 11:51 PM   #359
Jandras
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Skywall
I was thinking recently, while mutilate doesn't scale very well with ArP it doesn't necessarily mean we don't benifit from it at all.

I know it may not be very substantial, but does anyone know how much of a dps loss we'll recieve from the ArP nerf before the mutilate buff?

My basic thinking being:

DPS -5% ArP nerf then Mut buff +10 is really only a 5% buff

(numbers not being exact, just making my point)

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Old 09/22/09, 1:02 AM   #360
Thaela
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Khaz'goroth
It's closer to -0.5% nerf, +2.5% buff (roughly, with bis) if you're just pulling out non exact numbers. It's entirely gear dependant and thus impossible to give anything remotely close to exact.

It's easy enough to calculate though, just take your favourite spreadsheet with your gear and adjust the arpen coefficient.

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