Feint is like an main-hand attack without direct damage. While glyphed, it's like you get a new ability to proc poison/weapon-enchant/trinkets every 10 seconds.
However, we have only 3 major glyph slots, which to give up?
Mut-spec: 1) ToTT 2) HfB 3) Mut
Combat-spec: 1) ToTT 2) KS 3) SS
In terms of DPS, Glyph of Feint wins none of those.
In terms of DPS, Glyph of Feint wins none of those.
But you wouldn't be using it to boost your dps, now would you? Take Sindragosa as an example: here damage output is not as important as coordination and survival. So, while you'll be lowering your dps by using glyph of feint, you'll lower the pressure on your healers, and probably live (and hence deal damage) for longer. So, if your healers are struggling to keep you alive on a fight like this one, it's a viable option.
But you wouldn't be using it to boost your dps, now would you? Take Sindragosa as an example: here damage output is not as important as coordination and survival. So, while you'll be lowering your dps by using glyph of feint, you'll lower the pressure on your healers, and probably live (and hence deal damage) for longer. So, if your healers are struggling to keep you alive on a fight like this one, it's a viable option.
There is nothing stopping you from using Feint when you don't have the Feint glyph. The glyph does not increase your survivability.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
There is nothing stopping you from using Feint when you don't have the Feint glyph. The glyph does not increase your survivability.
It does, however it is minimal. If you don't have the energy to use Feint, you can't get the benefit. With the glyph you can use it immediately off cooldown if necessary. Though the argument can be made, you should anticipate having to use Feint and make sure you have the energy to do so.
The point here is that a diligent player can Feint when needed without incurring the DPS loss of using the glyph, especially since it only requires the foresight to have 20 energy. Since the glyph only affects dps and not survivability for those players, switching from a higher dps glyph to Glyph of Feint isn't worthwhile.
The point here is that a diligent player can Feint when needed without incurring the DPS loss of using the glyph, especially since it only requires the foresight to have 20 energy. Since the glyph only affects dps and not survivability for those players, switching from a higher dps glyph to Glyph of Feint isn't worthwhile.
From the other side of the looking glass however, a prepared player can Feint when needed without incurring the DPS loss of a 20 energy cost, especially since it only requires the foresight to change your glyph before the pull.
On any fight where you plan to feint on cd, the new glyph of feint has got to be worth more DPS than glyph of mutilate. This is assuming you are not mutilating more than once every 2.5 seconds of course.
From the other side of the looking glass however, a prepared player can Feint when needed without incurring the DPS loss of a 20 energy cost, especially since it only requires the foresight to change your glyph before the pull.
On any fight where you plan to feint on cd, the new glyph of feint has got to be worth more DPS than glyph of mutilate. This is assuming you are not mutilating more than once every 2.5 seconds of course.
Swapping out that glyph will cost your raid quite a bit of dps no matter how you slice it. For Combat, your best choice is to swap out Glyph of Sinister Strike for it. Mutilate would drop Glyph of Mutilate. Combat pays a smaller price for it, but it's still a pretty big sacrifice. We have yet to see a fight with a need to Feint on cooldown. Using Feint situationally doesn't require sacrificing a major glyph slot. It requires watching your boss timers and being in melee range when you need to Feint.
Let healers do their job, which is to keep you alive. You do your job and help out on big, timed, spike damage that's inescapable by Feinting before it hits. Your other (and primary) job is to make the boss's health hit 0 as fast as possible.
It's worth noting that the usual analysis for the glyph of killing spree really only applies to pure tank and spank fights. On fights with adds like deathwhisper or dreamwalker, it's often better to save KS so it lines up with BF. On fights with adds that you don't want to hit (the timing for saurfang's beasts is particularly bad, but princes and LK phase 1 also come to mind) you often need to waste some of the glyph anyway. The spreadsheet analysis is all well and good for the general case, but optimization really requires some fight-specific thinking.
As long as you know someone that does inscription, the cost of swapping glyphs between progression fights should be well below the cost of speed pots.
There's only three fights/situations that I can think of where Glyph of Feint would possibly have a higher benefit than other glyphs available.
1) Heroic Deathwhisper during phase 2. Energy shortages can become problematic since you might be expected to interrupt frostbolts, DPS the boss/adds and Feint whenever a ghost wave is coming in.
2) Heroic Saurfang, however this would only be useful if you get a Mark of the Fallen Champion on you. Glyph of Feint would be a huge gain since you can Feint on CD to reduce the damage you are taking from Mark of the Fallen Champion at no energy cost. A large benefit but obviously dependent on if you get a Mark on you or not.
3) Lich King during phase 3 when Vile Spirits are being spawned. Depending on your raid's strategy, if they have rogues staying on Lich King you can safely eat a few Vile Spirit explosions if you have Feint up. Glyph of Feint would allow you to use more energy for DPS'ing LK.
2 and 3 are highly situational and not at all necessary. I can see someone switching to Glyph of Feint if they have a problem with energy conservation or raid awareness, but it seems like most of the glyph's benefits can be negated with awareness and forethought.
I am somewhat curious what the DPS value of Poison procs from feint spam would attribute to the value of the glyph. I understand that currently there is somewhat of a debate over the philosophy of focusing purely on DPS or providing 30% overall AoE Reduction.
I can't imagine Feint spam to be a significant DPS increase(Compared to say having no glyphs), but we are not talking about a pure 2% loss.
There's only three fights/situations that I can think of where Glyph of Feint would possibly have a higher benefit than other glyphs available.
1) Heroic Deathwhisper during phase 2. Energy shortages can become problematic since you might be expected to interrupt frostbolts, DPS the boss/adds and Feint whenever a ghost wave is coming in.
2) Heroic Saurfang, however this would only be useful if you get a Mark of the Fallen Champion on you. Glyph of Feint would be a huge gain since you can Feint on CD to reduce the damage you are taking from Mark of the Fallen Champion at no energy cost. A large benefit but obviously dependent on if you get a Mark on you or not.
3) Lich King during phase 3 when Vile Spirits are being spawned. Depending on your raid's strategy, if they have rogues staying on Lich King you can safely eat a few Vile Spirit explosions if you have Feint up. Glyph of Feint would allow you to use more energy for DPS'ing LK.
2 and 3 are highly situational and not at all necessary. I can see someone switching to Glyph of Feint if they have a problem with energy conservation or raid awareness, but it seems like most of the glyph's benefits can be negated with awareness and forethought.
You forgot Festergut's pungent blight ability, especially on heroic mode. It's easy to miss a spore when dodging goo.
No I did not forget it. The reason being you can Vanish Pungent Blight and completely ignore all the damage. You could not possibly justify using Glyph of Feint in this fight since there is a maximum of two times you could effectively use Feint. I wasn't naming every AOE situation in ICC, but only the fights where you stand to benefit from using Feint on CD or close to it.
I'm pretty sure you can't cloak Pungent Blight (at least on heroic; I've never tried using it on normal since getting 3 stacks is trivial). Either that, or my luck on CloS is horrible. It is definitely vanishable, though.
Given that the patch is likely tomorrow, I'm playing around with the combat spreadsheet.
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- I switched Calcs.B12 to force Rupture crits on
- Under the assumption that the new Serrated Blades works like mace spec, rather than Sunder (searched around, didn't find a definitive answer as to which it works like), I removed the Serrated Blades modifier from row 121 in Calcs, and then added (98.37*Equipment.K75) to Calcs.B9 to grant 3% ArP per point.
Currently, I'm running the standard 20/51 combat, with the spreadsheet reading at 10973 DPS.
With those changes made, I tried out a number of permutations of talents/glyphs, but found the following:
* 20/51/0 with KS/Rupture/SnD glyphs: 11475 DPS (+4.57%)
* 7/51/13 with KS/Rupture/SnD glyphs: 11629 DPS (+5.97%)
* 7/51/13 with KS/Rupture/SS glyphs: 11729 DPS (+6.88%)
The best numbers I can produce are in a high-rupture cycle with Blood Spatter + Serrated Blades, which just doesn't quite feel right, given how much damage poisons are contributing. I'd be interested to know what other rogues are coming up with given similar calculations.
Edit: I'm dumb, I used 32.79 ArP rating/1%, rather than 12.31 rating/1%. Above numbers are obviously very off as a result. Blacked out the text so that people don't skim it, but left it there as a point of reference for the following discussion.
I am seeing the exact same thing. I made all the changes you made and got the following results.
Currently, I am running the standard 20/51 combat with KS/Evis/SS glyphs, with a spreadsheet reading of 12452.6 dps. With the changes made, I am using 7/51/13 with KS/Rupture/SS glyphs, with a spreadsheet reading of 12967.8 dps. I replaced all my ArP gems with AGI except one. I ended up with 1387 ArP.
So as I see it, if the changes to Serrated Blades is correct (IE adding 3% ArP per point) then it seems combat will be using 7/51/13 again - of course, this is all based on if me and Antiarc edit'd the sheet correctly.
Also worth noting, without the changes to the spreadsheet I was coming up with around 13500 dps for BiS - give or take depending on different boss fights and professions. After making the changes, I am coming up with 14100 dps for BiS. A 600 dps increase is quite a jump - I am almost beginning to doubt Serrated Blades works as 9% ArP or beginning to doubt I amended the spreadsheet correctly - I guess only time will tell.
I am seeing the exact same thing. I made all the changes you made and got the following results.
Currently, I am running the standard 20/51 combat with KS/Evis/SS glyphs, with a spreadsheet reading of 12452.6 dps. With the changes made, I am using 7/51/13 with KS/Rupture/SS glyphs, with a spreadsheet reading of 12967.8 dps. I replaced all my ArP gems with AGI except one. I ended up with 1387 ArP.
So as I see it, if the changes to Serrated Blades is correct (IE adding 3% ArP per point) then it seems combat will be using 7/51/13 again - of course, this is all based on if me and Antiarc edit'd the sheet correctly.
Also worth noting, without the changes to the spreadsheet I was coming up with around 13500 dps for BiS - give or take depending on different boss fights and professions. After making the changes, I am coming up with 14100 dps for BiS. A 600 dps increase is quite a jump - I am almost beginning to doubt Serrated Blades works as 9% ArP or beginning to doubt I amended the spreadsheet correctly - I guess only time will tell.
I'm sorry but I'm not following you calculations for ArP.
You said:
Originally Posted by Jaron
With the changes made, I am using 7/51/13 with KS/Rupture/SS glyphs, with a spreadsheet reading of 12967.8 dps. I replaced all my ArP gems with AGI except one. I ended up with 1387 ArP.
Your character sheet has you at 1352 ArP with 320 ArP coming from gems. By replacing all but one of the ArP gems to +20 agi you would have 1052 ArP with the one +20 ArP gem.
Now if WotLK boss have 13,083 armor 9% of that from Serated Blades should be ~117 ArP (13,083 x 0.009 = 117.747)
Which should give you 1169 ArP (1052 + 117 = 1169)
It is enirely possible that I've made a calculation mistake, if so I'm sorry, so could you please show how you concluded that you would have 1387 ArP a 35 ArP increase after removing 300 ArP in gems.
Finally if Rupture scales better with AP wouldn't it make more sense to change those gems to AP?
As I take the Serrated Blade change, it is 9% ArP (aka acts like Mace Spec). So 9% ArP is roughly 295 ArP. Also, please note, when I am quoting ArP numbers, I am using my ArP in the spreadsheet, which has me using 40 ArP food as well. So, if you take my 1052 ArP, plus 295 (Serrated Blades), plus 40 (ArP food) - you come up with 1387.
Also, the reason AGI is producing better results for Rupture than AP is because the change to make Rupture crit; AGI giving AP and Crit pushes it ahead of AGI - atleast for me.
I'm sorry but I'm not following you calculations for ArP.
Now if WotLK boss have 13,083 armor 9% of that from Serated Blades should be ~117 ArP (13,083 x 0.009 = 117.747)
Which should give you 1169 ArP (1052 + 117 = 1169)
The statement above is incorrect.
1) If Serrated Blade does in fact work like Mace Specialization/Battle Stance/Blood Gorged, it will provide a static 126 ArP.
2) The way armor pen reduces boss's armor isn't a percentage reduction. It chooses between the lowest of two values mentioned below:
First value we call it AC = (Armor+C)/3 and the second value is the Armor. the constant C is predefined by the mob level/type. The game then chooses the lowest of the two values (AC or Armor) and applies a percentage armor reduction (based on your ArP) on that value.
Say you have 100 percent armor reduction, a lvl 83 Mob has a aasigned C value of 15232.5 and Armor of 13083, therefore AC=9438.5 [(15232.5+13083)/3]
Therefore, with 100 percent ArP, you only reduced boss's armor from 13083 to (13083-9438.5)=3644.5.
1) If Serrated Blade does in fact work like Mace Specialization/Battle Stance/Blood Gorged, it will provide a static 126 ArP.
2) The way armor pen reduces boss's armor isn't a percentage reduction. It chooses between the lowest of two values mentioned below:
First value we call it AC = (Armor+C)/3 and the second value is the Armor. the constant C is predefined by the mob level/type. The game then chooses the lowest of the two values (AC or Armor) and applies a percentage armor reduction (based on your ArP) on that value.
Say you have 100 percent armor reduction, a lvl 83 Mob has a aasigned C value of 15232.5 and Armor of 13083, therefore AC=9438.5 [(15232.5+13083)/3]
Therefore, with 100 percent ArP, you only reduced boss's armor from 13083 to (13083-9438.5)=3644.5.
Assuming you're correct Jaron would have 1219 ArP (1052 + 40 (food) + 127 (3/3 Serated Blades) = 1219.
@ Jaron - Yes, I forgot that the crit gained from Agility would mean more Rupture crit ticks.
Tofuu is correct - 9% ArP would give a static 126 ArP rating. So my calcs above are wrong (as well as Antiarc). The calc for Serrated Blades should be changed from (98.37*Equipment.K75) to (41.97*Equipment.K75). I cannot plug this into the spreadsheet right now as I am home and not at work - but this will lower the dps quite a bit. More than likely resulting in 20/51/0 being the top spec for Combat still.
For pure AP/AP-Haste w/o any Arp gemming i end up with
20/51/0
3/3 Ruthlessness
2/2 Blood Spatter
Glyphs: KS/Rupt/SnD
being the highest dps gain (appr.4%). The Spreadsheet advices me to use a high rupture cycle. (assuming you got a bleeding debuff on your target.)
Could anyone confirm this?
Consider, this only counts for gemming like i did, maybe Agi or even Arp will be better anyway.
I fiddle with a bunch of setups and I'll post the numbers I found. None of this is BiS gear it's what I have currently and as such, scaling could end up shifting the balance at some point, but that should be evident by examining what I have now.
Currently I am running the standard 20/51/0 with ARP gems and AGI/HIT with Evisc/KS/SS yielding 11125.7 DPS
20/51/0 (2/3 Evisc + 3/3 Ruth) with ARP + AGI/HIT gems with Rupt/KS/SS = 1119.5 (+70.2)
20/51/0 (Ruth + BS) with ARP + AGI/HIT gems with Evisc/KS/SS = 11215.6 (+89.9)
20/51/0 (Ruth + BS) with ARP + AGI/HIT gems with Rupt/KS/SS = 11333.1 (207.4)
20/51/0 (Ruth + BS) with AGI + AGI/CRIT gems with Rupt/KS/SS = 11336.2 (+210.5)
20/51/0 (Ruth + BS) with AGi + AGI/CRIT gems with Rupt/KS/SnD = 11362.2 (+236.5)
20/51/0 (Ruth + BS) with ARP + AGI/HIT gems with Rupt/KS/SnD = 11362 (+236.3)
20/51/0 (Ruth + BS) with AP + AP/Haste gems with Rupt/KS/SnD = 11348 (+222.3)
Any 7/51/13 variation was a DPS loss (200-250) over my current setup so I wont bother posting those numbers. I've obviously left out some permutations but I did so because I found an obvious pattern as I went on that anything with Eviscerate is not the best, and anything with Glyph of Sinister Strike (SS) was also not the best.
From my numbers I've gathered that by simply respec'ing for Blood Spatter and swapping Glyph of Sinister Strike for Glyph of SnD, I gain 236.3 DPS.
What's interesting is that swapping ARP gems for AGI gems is such a minimal gain in DPS so little that it would not be noticeable.
03/09/10, 11:28 PM
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