Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion - Page 44

bluejohnnyd · 11/17/09, 11:49 PM

How does this affect mutilate specs? I would guess that the extra effect of deadly on the offhand will make haste more valuable, perhaps encouraging 51/18/2 at an earlier gear level. Does this strike anyone else as reasonable?

Also, would this make Mongoose yet closer to surpassing Berserking?

Unzipped · 11/18/09, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by bluejohnnyd

Also, would this make Mongoose yet closer to surpassing Berserking?

I'd assume since we will already be skating the line on being crit capped, the added crit chance effect from the agility on mongoose would be taken out of the equation, giving berserking that extra leg up again.

Mavanas · 11/18/09, 1:29 AM

Besides poison damage will go much higher than it is even now with weapon swapping (because you no longer lose swings that may potentially proc poisons and because of new improved poisons buff for DP). So despite the 2% haste buff from mongoose, I suspect berserking to pull ahead at least for mutilate.

I am also wondering if improved poisons buff is so strong that it will make turn the tables a viable option again. I guess it's time to plug all these changes in the simsheet.

Houd · 11/18/09, 3:58 AM

Aldriana, concerning your observations regarding the lack of hit on IC gear will it be impossible even to reach the 238hit cap which any raiding rogue should be going for now?

Vonlego · 11/18/09, 4:16 AM

Mavanas, keep in mind that every time envenom is used and deadly is dropped, you will lose out on five hits of instant poison as well as the lost damage from deadly. I see where you're coming from, deadly will be much easier to re-stack post-envenom; however, the stack itself is now much more valuable than before and in turn losing it is more of a detriment. That being said, I eagerly await your conclusions!

• Aldriana · 11/18/09, 4:22 AM

An answer in a couple of parts:

First, we haven't actually seen all the available gear even in easy mode, much less in hard mode. So that's a hard question to answer.

Second, there's impossible, and then there's "impossible". I mean, worst case, we can just start socketing Glinting in red sockets to get more hit - or use Dragon's Eyes in yellow sockets for hit instead of in red sockets for ArPen - or if the situation is dire enough, even start skipping socket bonuses. The question, of course, is whether doing so is worth it. And the answer to that question appears to be that doing so is not necessary so far anyway, but we'll have to get a better look at the overall gear setup before we can say with any certainty.

The other thing I'd note is that the wording of the new Deadly Poison mechanic is... unclear... in terms of when hit is checked. Does DP count as "applied" even if the proc is resisted? As if it doesn't, spell hit will be checked twice for purposes of doing MH poison damage with those OH procs, making reaching the spell hit cap that much more important. Edit: Disregard this. Missed Deadly Poison procs can still proc MH poison, as seen here:

11/18 02:30:15.927  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000000BA25C,"Aldriana",0x511,0xF13079AA0000186D,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,57970,"Deadly Poison IX",0x8,DEBUFF
11/18 02:30:18.143  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000000BA25C,"Aldriana",0x511,0xF13079AA0000186D,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,57970,"Deadly Poison IX",0x8,740,0,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/18 02:30:19.995  SPELL_MISSED,0x01000000000BA25C,"Aldriana",0x511,0xF13079AA0000186D,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,57970,"Deadly Poison IX",0x8,MISS
11/18 02:30:20.212  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000000BA25C,"Aldriana",0x511,0xF13079AA0000186D,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,5940,"Shiv",0x1,239,0,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/18 02:30:20.212  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000000BA25C,"Aldriana",0x511,0xF13079AA0000186D,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,57965,"Instant Poison IX",0x8,644,0,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/18 02:30:21.161  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000000BA25C,"Aldriana",0x511,0xF13079AA0000186D,"Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,57970,"Deadly Poison IX",0x8,741,0,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

Phonebooth · 11/18/09, 4:31 AM

Is this going to place Mutilate far enough above Combat to make up for lack of multi-target damage?

As I understand it due in part to tree placement of the talents and what you give up in terms of talents to reach them that this effects mutilate far better than combat. Am I correct in these assumptions?

Javanface · 11/18/09, 4:46 AM

We won't know that until we see some actual parses with these changes as they affect both specs.

As for the magnitude of the dps increase for different specs, this will be a larger dps increase for mutilate thanks to the synergy between Vile Poisons, Imp. Poisons, Master Poisoner and the Envenom buff. Any combat spec will have to give up points in Relentless Strikes in order to reach Vile Poisons or Imp. Poisons. Simply put, there is a talent trade-off with combat in order to capitalize on this change that simply isn't necessary for a mutilate spec. As Aldriana has pointed out however, it remains to be seen what the stats on ICC gear will push us towards gear-wise. If we are struggling to reach the poison hit cap, Relentless Strikes gains dps value relative to talents that increase poison damage.

Hookie · 11/18/09, 4:56 AM

Before today's patch,the Rogue set shoulders had attack power on them twice, today they were fixed to instead have 63/72 hit rating.

Another thing to consider in the long term,is that the Ashen Verdict Agi ring has Hit rating on it.
The final ring should have:
Item - Icecrown Reputation Ring Melee - Chance on hit to increase your attack power by 480 for 10 sec.

Valustria · 11/18/09, 4:58 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this change to Deadly Poison actually guarantees that every full stack will fall off after the max duration because there's no way to apply Deadly Poison again to save/refresh it while the stack is at five, assuming a normal setup of IP/DP for Mutilate or WP/DP for Combat.

I imagine it's still a DPS increase over constantly applying DP that doesn't actually add any extra damage, but I wonder if people won't swap a second Deadly weapon in just for the chance to refresh the DP stack if the standard procedure is to apply DP when both weapons use it.

Edit: Damnit, I was gonna delete this post as soon as I saw I still had another page to read in the thread... people always think of these things before I do! = P

Phonebooth · 11/18/09, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this change to Deadly Poison actually guarantees that every full stack will fall off after the max duration because there's no way to apply Deadly Poison again to save/refresh it while the stack is at five, assuming a normal setup of IP/DP for Mutilate or WP/DP for Combat.

I imagine it's still a DPS increase over constantly applying DP that doesn't actually add any extra damage, but I wonder if people won't swap a second Deadly weapon in just for the chance to refresh the DP stack if the standard procedure is to apply DP when both weapons use it.

As I understand it Deadly Poison still applies refreshing its duration, however, if it is at a 5 stack it will also proc your mainhand poison.

each application of Deadly Poison also causes the poison on the Rogue's other weapon to apply.

As you can see Deadly Poison is still applying.

• Aldriana · 11/18/09, 6:02 AM

So, upon preliminary investigation, it appears that the optimal Combat Build with known gear and the poison changes is actually 20/51/0, with 1/3 Vile and 4/5 Improved Poisons. Damage goes up from 10667.2 to 11374.7 - about a 6% increase. However, it also tanks the value of the T10 4/5 due to the loss of Relentless Strikes, which may make it more likely that we wind up ditching that set bonus at some point.

However, it's also likely that the poison change will be vastly larger for Mutilate and, as such, it may prove that Combat is fundamentally no longer as viable - we'll have to run those numbers to be sure.

Tinwhisker · 11/18/09, 9:03 AM

Just to put this in here since no one has yet. GC has posted that they are killing the addon in 3.3 (no matter what they do otherwise). It's still unclear (and unlikely) that the killing of the addon will have any affect on macros. I would imagine the macro using outfits would die but a straight weapon only macro would continue to work.

winst · 11/18/09, 10:06 AM

Please, I know you're giddy to get a little pat on the head but this has been being discussed for over two pages already.

@Tinwhisker - When did GC state they would kill the addon? It appears that they just discouraged the practice of weapon swapping by making it do less DPS than simply running Wound/Deadly 100% of the time. I believe he even liked us (as do I) having the ability to switch between poisons for utility reasons. Having a mod for that is like having a mod that puts your timers where you want them - handy, not essential.

Xynen · 11/18/09, 10:12 AM

We also killed the addon, but we didn't want to do it without also trying to fix the problem it was trying to fix.

Here's the thread.