I'm not a theorycrafter personally but it seems possible to me, that instead of maintaining our usual dps cycles after obtaining the tier 9 bonus it might be wiser to actually change the rotation, especially as combat, to take advantage of the full 40 energy reduction in cost.
That is when running a 4s/5r/5e rotation if the bonus procs when you are at five cps or 4 before a Slice and Dice, would it be worth wasting the CP and doing an extra sinister strike in order to save as much as 15 energy? assuming this doesn't cause slice and dice to fall off.
This could also be viable for mutilate with of course the problem that instead of wasting one maybe two CPs you are wasting as many as 3.
In short the reward for this change would be 5 to 15 energy and the opportunity cost would be 1 or 2 CPs for combat or 1 to 3 CPs for mutilate.
Of course all of this assumes that the proc has a buff icon and that this idea is supportable by math, which I don't have the expertise to do myself.
As I sit here and read this debate I believe the mechanic in which the energy proc will happen will play a major role in the effectiveness of spec and playstyle. I would like some clarification on if the 40 energy from the 2pc t9 will bump you 40 energy or just decrease the cost of the next move. If it's the latter the plAyers who are not letting their energy cap before the t9 2pc will benefit from it greatly. Energy regen 'should' continue like normal allowing for more moves on the same amount of energy.
As I sit here and read this debate I believe the mechanic in which the energy proc will happen will play a major role in the effectiveness of spec and playstyle. I would like some clarification on if the 40 energy from the 2pc t9 will bump you 40 energy or just decrease the cost of the next move. If it's the latter the plAyers who are not letting their energy cap before the t9 2pc will benefit from it greatly. Energy regen 'should' continue like normal allowing for more moves on the same amount of energy.
There's no need for clarification, it reduces the cost of the next move. It should work exactly like a clearcast proc for druids.
There's nothing listed under rogue changes in the latest PTR build notes, however I'd suggest the following will affect us in solo and pvp and increase our incoming damage in some encounters.
Items: General
* Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.
I recall having seen a reply on one of the PTR forums stating that in total, the net loss of dodge from this change was in the neighborhood of 2-4% on the character sheet. This is not exactly game-breaking for a leveling rogue per se since extreme dodge levels are not exactly the main focus of a leveling rogue's gear. PvP oriented rogues will feel the reduction a bit more.
At 80, if wowwiki.com's figures are to be trusted, the numbers look like so:
Or another way to view it assuming equivalent values of x in both cases:
Live xAgi = 1% Dodge
3.2: xAgi = .87% Dodge
This dodge percent would of course be subject to diminishing returns when put in the context of current avoidance levels. Please correct me if I am mistaken in any of my assumptions.
Someone pulled out a spell change to Combat Potency where it was changed from:
Live: 20% chance on a successful OH attack to gain 3/6/9/12/15 energy
to:
3.2: 20/40/60/80/100% chance on successful OH attack to regain 15 energy.
Can someone confirm or deny that this is indeed what is on the PTR? If it is, this will greatly increase the value of +hit even after the poison cap.
I've not seen anything like that (I'm at work and can't check the PTR). Something like that would be a huge (and I'm not kidding huge) buff to a spec that doesn't need it. I cannot imagine Blizzard would do this without other major changes (nerfs).
There is a change incoming to some rogue special attacks to allow Combat Potency to work with them but it's nothing like what you state.
It seemed necessary to start such a thread for discussing incoming rogue changes. We can start with 3.2.
In the patchnotes posted in MMO-Champion, there was a change regarding Combat Potency to proc from all offhand melee attacks. It is nice to see Killing Spree gets its ability to regenerate energy back after the shiv related nerfs it suffered.
Edit: Typo
Here, and verified it on mmo-champion.com.
But that doesn't mean it actually is working like this on the PTR.
There's a misunderstanding here. The change is from "off hand melee autoattacks" to "off hand melee attacks", meaning Shiv, Killing Spree, and FoK could potentially proc Combat Potency. Here are the spells, for reference:
But that doesn't mean it actually is working like this on the PTR.
There is no mention of this on MMO Champion whatsoever. It's still 20% chance of 3/6/9/12/15 Energy, based on points invested. The only change is the removal of the auto-attack restriction.
•Combat Potency now affects all off-hand melee attacks.
•Sword Specialization has been renamed to Hack and Slash and affects Axes.
There's a misunderstanding here. The change is from "off hand melee autoattacks" to "off hand melee attacks", meaning Shiv, Killing Spree, and FoK could potentially proc Combat Potency. Here are the spells, for reference:
Combat Potency (live) - Combat Potency - Spell - World of Warcraft
Combat Potency (PTR) - Combat Potency - Spell - World of Warcraft
If what you are saying is correct, in that it is adding ability attacks to contribute to this in addition to Auto attacks, then that is just a very minor boost. Would make more sense.
Mutilate and Combat rogues are fine in dps compared to other classes atm. Just wish they would fix the talent trees so that a single talent isn't ~20% of the overall dps.
If what you are saying is correct, in that it is adding ability attacks to contribute to this in addition to Auto attacks, then that is just a very minor boost. Would make more sense.
Mutilate and Combat rogues are fine in dps compared to other classes atm. Just wish they would fix the talent trees so that a single talent isn't ~20% of the overall dps.
You're misreading the notes on MMO Champion. As has been noted, it's merely been changed to not be restricted to autoattacks. It's still a 20% chance. Even in the segment you quoted, if you mouseover Combat Potency, you will see the tooltip of the talent, at rank 5 datamined from the PTR: Combat Potency - Spells - Sigrie
It Reads:
Gives your successful off-hand melee attacks a 20% chance to generate 15 Energy.
If what you are saying is correct, in that it is adding ability attacks to contribute to this in addition to Auto attacks, then that is just a very minor boost. Would make more sense.
Yes, that exactly what the notes, myself, madsushi, and Feist-Mok said. It's more-or-less a revert to the old way some attacks worked.
When Shiv was able to proc combat potency (as well as crit) it became viable combo point builder. It was a this point that the ability to proc combat potency was removed from special attacks like shiv (and by extension FoK). Now that shiv has been made so that niether it, nor the poison it applies can crit they can revert that change in 3.2.
So you're saying Fan of Knives can proc combat potency with this change?
Yes, FoK can trigger the talent, like on page 1 explained
Originally Posted by Gryzemuis
Suppose FoK offhand attacks will now proc Combat Potency.
I assume FoK attacks are seen as yellow attacks, and with yellow hitcap, we will hit all our FoK attacks.
Rogue GCD = 1 second.
Energy needed to spam FoK every second = 50 energy/sec.
Normal energy regen (with Vitality) = 12.5 energy/sec,
Needed = 37.5 energy/sec from Combat Potency.
Combat Potency proc = 15 energy.
Needed = 2.5 procs/sec.
Procrate = 20%.
Need 12.5 targets to hit with FoK.
Ergo: when you have 12 or more targets around you, you can spam FoK every GCD without ever running out of energy.
Gonna be fun !
something tells me that blizz will somehow nerf the FoK + Combat potency. It might not be in 3.2, but i'm almost prepared to place a bet on it that before 4.0 hits, it will be able to proc Combat Potency's +15 energy only once per FoK, instead every offhand hit 1 FoK makes. I have yet to see blade flurry work on FoK as well.
Yes, FoK can trigger the talent, like on page 1 explained
Vanilla, you are misreading that quote. The poster said "suppose that FoK offhand attacks will now proc Combat Potency," they did not say "Yes, FoK offhand attacks do proc Combat Potency." It was simply an exercise to see, assuming it was true, how many targets you would need to be able to spam FoK every GCD.
A later poster made it clear that FoK does not in fact proc CP (at least at that point in the PTR, this could have changed, but I don't see why it would).
Originally Posted by Gile
Combat Potency does not proc off FoK or shiv currently on test server. Also it does proc of Killing Spree off hand attacks now. I have not tested White offhand misses yet but will look into it
I have yet to see blade flurry work on FoK as well.
I can assure you blade flurry does indeed work with FoK. The mage, warlock, and hunter qq that ensues in my guild's vent after the first pull in Thorim is proof of this.
Ends meant that people were QQing because of his rediculous dps numbers, which are always produced when using blade flurry with fan of knives, it increses the effectiveness of the ability damage from FoK by 100%, it does not however increase the damage dealt from poisons, blade flurry is still a huge dps increase although your guild may complain if you use it to pad meters on a fight like kologarn.
@Xaoc
Positioning myself within FoK range of 4 Dummies and within melee range of two of them, I get the following.
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1712 Overkill) (Critical)
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(844 Overkill)
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(757 Overkill)
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1668 Overkill) (Critical)
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2112 Overkill) (Critical)
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2386 Overkill) (Critical)
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2235 Overkill) (Critical)
10:29:31> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2228 Overkill) (Critical)
10:29:32> Bural's Blade Flurry hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2112 Overkill)
10:29:32> Bural's Blade Flurry hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2386 Overkill)
10:29:32> Bural's Blade Flurry hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2235 Overkill)
10:29:32> Bural's Blade Flurry hits Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(2228 Overkill)
I get 4 times Blade Flurry attacks, 2 for each target within melee range. As such Blade Flurry works with all FoK attacks on all targets within melee range.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you get blade flurry hits for everything you FoK, but only from main hand hits - OH hits don't proc Focused Attacks, Blade Flurry, or anything else - as of 3.1, anyway. It might have changed in 3.2 - we'll have to test.
Rereading my post I was actually about to put in a edit as the size of the Blade Flurry attacks indeed seemed to come from the mainhand.
Redid the test on 3 marked targets - Skull and Triangle are within melee range:
11:32:12> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Triangle Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(830 Overkill)
11:32:12> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Skull Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(803 Overkill)
11:32:12> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Moon Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(763 Overkill)
11:32:13> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Triangle Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1012 Overkill)
11:32:13> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Skull Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1056 Overkill)
11:32:13> Bural's Fan of Knives hits Moon Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1110 Overkill)
11:32:13> Bural's Blade Flurry hits Skull Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1012 Overkill)
11:32:13> Bural's Blade Flurry hits Triangle Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1056 Overkill)
11:32:13> Bural's Blade Flurry hits Skull Expert's Training Dummy for 1 Physical.(1110 Overkill)
The Blade Flurry attacks does indeed origin from all mainhand hits regardless of melee range and seem to just hit a target in melee range without any preference in particular. Not sure if the spin animation on FoK has anything to do with the Blade Flurry target changing.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you get blade flurry hits for everything you FoK, but only from main hand hits - OH hits don't proc Focused Attacks, Blade Flurry, or anything else - as of 3.1, anyway. It might have changed in 3.2 - we'll have to test.
This is the case. Also, Blade Flurry will only strike "additional" targets. If you use Blade Flurry and FoK and there's only one target in range of FoK, you will see no Blade Flurry hits. If there are 10 targets in FoK range but only 1 of those are in Melee range, you'll see the Blade Flurry repeats from the 9 FoKs hit the single target, but the single target's FoK will not cause a Blade Flurry. If there are two target in melee range, it doesn't matter how many targets are at range: all attacks will be replicated by Blade Flurry. The main hand FoKs to the two melee targets will be replicated on the other, and the ranged attack FoKs will be replicated to either one of the melee targets (seemingly random). I have a full write-up of FoK's current mechanics on Encrypted Text. The only uncertainty is whether or not Combat Potency and FoK will interact in 3.2's final release.
That's amazing, I never realized that's how blade flurry interacts with FOK. Just thinking of implications, if you are on Auriaya and the guardian swarm is in FOK range but not in melee range, each FOK with BF will be hitting the boss for 1500x10=15000 each time or 300 dpe. Or if you have Immortals up in phase 3 of Yogg and you stay just outside of their melee range, the FOK/BF damage would be really high too, most likely making it preferable to using sinister strike/eviscerate regular rotation while BF is up.
07/05/09, 5:24 PM
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