Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion - Page 5

Barlow · 06/26/09, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Auturgist

Sorry, I didn't see the difference. A 51-point Subtlety build that doesn't have HAT is like a 51-point Combat build that doesn't have Combat Potency -- you could do it, but why the hell would you?

I think he actually meant a 51 point build including HAT compared to a standard HAT build that would simply include Backstab as well.

Murr · 06/26/09, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

1) Hyperspeed Accelerators now give 20% uptime on 340 haste rating, or 68 average-case haste; this works out to a benefit around 91 EP for Mutilate and 101 for combat; compared to the baseline glove enchant which is 44 EP for both, the benefit is roughly 47 EP for Mutilate and 57 EP for combat.

Maybe I'm going off false assumptions here, but don't you also need to account for the additional advantage of Hyperspeed Accelerators used in conjunction with Heroism, Blade Flurry, and/or Haste pots?

Since Haste is multiplicative and (with the Hyperspeeds being on a 1 minute cooldown) it's usually easy to line up their activation with at least Heroism, if not other effects, without too much time spent sitting on a cooldown you could activate. Sort of hard to quantify with EP as you are trying to do above, but my anecdotal experience at least is that stacking Hyperspeeds + Blade Flurry on a Heroism burn phase is pretty ridiculous and it's worth noting at least.

You can also argue the benefit is higher than the averaged haste over a minute duration for the fights where you don't have 100% uptime on melee attacking - for those more mobile fights, you get no benefit from your Crusher enchant while running, but can often extract full usage of Hyperspeeds.

Edit: I'm also partial to the Electromagnetic Pulse Generator but it has no real EP value

However, I find it invaluable for skipping Mimiron trash on our 10 man every week and for an emergency save on XT if the repair bots get through (which somehow almost happened to us this week after activating hardmode.. leftovers I suppose)

Shaker · 06/26/09, 2:22 PM

Whenever you delay the use of them, you're also incurring a loss of potential uptime as well - if you say "oh, I'll wait 15s because BF is going to be up", then you just reduced their effectiveness by 25% for this cooldown. (Yes, I realize that sometimes it works out that those 15s don't cause you to lose the final activation on a boss fight, but on average you will lose some effectivness).

There's postivies and negatives, but they largely balance eachother out.

Murr · 06/26/09, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Shaker

Whenever you delay the use of them, you're also incurring a loss of potential uptime as well - if you say "oh, I'll wait 15s because BF is going to be up", then you just reduced their effectiveness by 25% for this cooldown. (Yes, I realize that sometimes it works out that those 15s don't cause you to lose the final activation on a boss fight, but on average you will lose some effectivness).

There's postivies and negatives, but they largely balance eachother out.

Right, I tried to account for that - my overall point was that using them intelligently and not necessarily waiting for BF, but that you can generally use them on-cooldown AND in-conjunction with Heroism given knowledge of the fights and your group. Given that usage model you're going to see a net benefit above the averaged out haste rating.

Plus, used correctly, BF and the Hyperspeeds are on the same cooldown cycle so there's no real reason you'd be waiting on Flurry to activate them. My most common use case actually is one where Heroism gets blown and I'm waiting on my Hyperspeed cooldown (and, sometimes, the coinciding Blade Flurry cooldown). Since Hero lasts 40s I find it pretty rare I'm not able to get full usage out of the overlap, and I don't ever really sit on the glove cooldown, especially not for 15s.

EastonS · 06/26/09, 9:50 PM

I have a macro which uses Hyper Speed + Bladeflurry at the same time (as HSA are not on the GCD). I'll basically have them up as BF comes [back] up, and yeah, I feel the potential of the accelerators, in terms of synergy was not really mentioned there.

I have a feeling they will be slightly more favorable with sword specialisation too. Would be cool to see what the upcoming weapon itemisation is like.

jorysaywut · 06/26/09, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Murr

You can also argue the benefit is higher than the averaged haste over a minute duration for the fights where you don't have 100% uptime on melee attacking - for those more mobile fights, you get no benefit from your Crusher enchant while running, but can often extract full usage of Hyperspeeds.

I'm a little confused as to how you get no benefit from your Crusher enchant while running but you somehow do when you have hyperspeed glove enchants. I'd imagine static stats are always better for fights with sporadic target contact unless it magically aligns with the 15 seconds on the enchant.

path411 · 06/26/09, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by jorysaywut

I'm a little confused as to how you get no benefit from your Crusher enchant while running but you somehow do when you have hyperspeed glove enchants. I'd imagine static stats are always better for fights with sporadic target contact unless it magically aligns with the 15 seconds on the enchant.

While moving, the crusher enchant has lost "uptime" equivalent to your lost DPS time. While the glove enchant still has the same 15s uptime from the non movement part of the fight.

Aurylia · 06/27/09, 12:46 AM

The past day or so I have been doing some testing on the PTR using the 245 T9 set, running a 4+ Mutilate cycle. I've been watching my energy closely and also my buffs and so far have not seen a single case of the 2 set functioning as the tooltip states, reducing the energy cost of my next ability by 40. I'm interested to know if anyone else has experienced the same, as its hard to really get a good idea of the numbers without correct functionality. That being said however, after extensive testing, i did find (on average) an increase in DPS of about 150 just from the stat values alone over the T8 set.

Veri · 06/27/09, 1:09 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Thus, the total theoretical benefit of engineering is around 47 + 2 + 10 + 30 = 89 for Mutilate, and 99 for Combat... assuming you use everything on cooldown. If, however, you are consistently 5 seconds late on using Hyperspeed Accelerators, or don't feel like burning through a hundred bombs a night, or otherwise fail to use the profession to it's absolute fullest, it's value is somewhat lower. For instance, if you use bombs and accelerators every 65 seconds instead of every 60, the total benefit drops to 80/90; and every fight you skip using bombs entirely on drops engineering to the bottom of the heap.
.

I use about 30 bombs per night, upwards of 50 on really bad nights. I use them instantly on cooldown, as with Hyperspeed Accelerators and in all honesty not using them on cooldown is just being lazy, all it takes is a simple macro /cast Sinister Strike /use Saronite Bomb /use Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets. My mouse generally hovers over the boss because I watch my threat via tooltip so while I'm mashing my Sinister Strike all it takes is a simple mouse click.

I like bombs because I can throw them on the move (it's not a huge benefit but it helps a little bit) and despite what people say about managing the targetting of bombs and such it's really less work than it sounds like.

• Aldriana · 06/27/09, 1:51 AM

Well, it depends on what you're doing, I imagine - on farm nights, I imagine you don't use that many. But, like, when learning Vezax hard, we'd do 30+ attempts in a night, many of which would last 3-4 minutes; one has to imagine that this winds up burning through 100 or more bombs. Some fights will be different - like, Yogg I imagine you only use them in the mind (and phase 3) which severely cuts down the number you need; but on some nights, I can imagine going through an awful lot of them if you use them on cooldown.

Chack · 06/27/09, 4:47 AM

Originally Posted by meowmeows

I would be very interested in seeing how a backstab/shadow dance spec would perform.

I used to play with a 15/5/51 spec in naxx sometimes (when i stopped respeccing for pve

). When i arranged the group so that i had the best possible cp/sec i barely got to use backstab at all. The cp just come in too fast so that if you use backstab as filler you'd sooner or later not have enough energy to use eviscerate. Backstab will be a really small portion of your damage (10-15%), so i do not think it will outperform a spec where you just dont use backstab and instead get 3% hit, 50% longer snd, 5% crit and 10% haste.

Backstab hat could be good if there was a finishing move that turned excess cp into an energy over time selfbuff.

Valyrra · 06/27/09, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by Aurylia

The past day or so I have been doing some testing on the PTR using the 245 T9 set, running a 4+ Mutilate cycle. I've been watching my energy closely and also my buffs and so far have not seen a single case of the 2 set functioning as the tooltip states, reducing the energy cost of my next ability by 40. I'm interested to know if anyone else has experienced the same, as its hard to really get a good idea of the numbers without correct functionality. That being said however, after extensive testing, i did find (on average) an increase in DPS of about 150 just from the stat values alone over the T8 set.

Last testing i did was right as servers went live and the two piece was proccing a buff called Unholy Strength. And it was on a very very low proc as well.

I believe we will need to see another build for any real testing to start, maybe it will be working properly then or even be a completely different bonus.

Avirex · 06/29/09, 5:51 PM

Blizz says:
-The Spynocular belt attachment has been changed to a Frag Belt. The Frag Belt periodically produces a Cobalt Frag Bomb that can be used from the belt every 10 minutes (never runs out!).

If the belt bomb doesn't trigger the saronite bomb cooldown, then it should give another 3ish DPS during a 5 minute fight. Not a huge benefit, but it might work out to another EP or 2 for engineering.

Feist-Mok · 06/29/09, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Avirex

If the belt bomb doesn't trigger the saronite bomb cooldown, then it should give another 3ish DPS during a 5 minute fight. Not a huge benefit, but it might work out to another EP or 2 for engineering.

Cobalt Frag Bombs have a cast time though, and are, I believe, on the GCD, unlike Saronite bombs. So probably not worth it if the belt works like the casted Cobalt Bombs. (which are mainly useful for the AE stun they cause)

Tinwhisker · 06/30/09, 10:11 AM

For those that haven't seen, all (or nearly all) the 4pc T9 bonuses that used to be "+5% crit to X" have been changed to something more useful except for the rogue bonus (it remains 5% crit to combo builders). Clearly they were all placeholders and I would expect the rogue 4pc bonus to be updated within a build or two.