Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion - Page 53

Mavanas · 12/08/09, 1:57 AM

Well we have talked about this in the mutilate thread, and your best strat is to envenom right before it is about to drop. So you end up clipping it by 0.001 second but your envenom strike itself receives the envenom buff benefit, which is worth losing the 0.001 time you are clipping.

In reality you cannot be that precise, but the technically correct answer, and that's what most people are trying to execute as best they can, is 2.2.

-Shizuki- · 12/08/09, 11:25 AM

From those of you who were on the PTR when they first changed our poison mechanic, are the official rogue patch notes the same as that build on the test realm?

I remember reading on here a few weeks back that the update was almost too strong, and some folks worried about being hit with the nerf bat. Going through this thread I don't see anything to indicate they ever changed anything.

Cipsy · 12/08/09, 11:42 AM

It's still the same as when it was first put on PTR.

bural · 12/08/09, 11:48 AM

The changes to Murder, Improved Poison and Deadly Poison are indeed very strong, but let's see how it works please.
I've seen far bigger buffs make it into live and stick because there where drawbacks that kept them in check. Targetswapping and lack of a potent cleave or AoE for semi small or medium sized group of adds has always been the weak point of the Mutilate spec. 2 or 3 of the first 4 boss fights (depending on tactics) have such aspects, so let's wait and see what the parses say.
I realize combat is (too) far behind Mutilate and it's possible it won't be able to make up for it's shortcomings on a single target. Currently, I'm keeping combat as offspec for Gunship Battle atleast.

noesis7 · 12/08/09, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by cerin616

So lets talk poisons in combat... With the addition to Deadly Poison causing additional procs for mainhand poisons, I think combat is looking at Instant poison on its MH. Rogues who stack armor pen out of its ass might want to look into taking Improved poisons a few points and leaving something behind in relentless strikes. But rogues without high armor pen and rupturless cycles may look into Vile Poisons and using envenom over eviscerate. Combat may turn into a SnD,Rupture,envenom or even just SnD envenom rotation. Either that or they can keep it the same and try it for the best, wounding poisons can still get the extra procs from deadly poison too.

True that Combat is better served to go Instant MH Deadly OH but I can't imagine them adopting Envenom in the situations you are describing. For one thing I believe if you are gemming for ArP Eviscerate still scales better than Envenom does. Additionally Mutilate has the significant benefit of not depleting the DP stack when envenom is cast due to Master Poisoner. The time spent by a combat rogue to refresh the DP stack will result in a DPS loss.

Amorelia · 12/08/09, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Zenitspb

I don't have high ilvl fast dagger for my muti spec, will 245 ilvl 1.8 dagger be better for OH than 232 ilvl 1.4 dagger?

No, simply because DP is not on a PPM mechanic. You will gain more dps from faster application rate of DP proccing the MH poison than from the additional white damage a slower dagger will generate.

Originally Posted by cerin616

So lets talk poisons in combat... With the addition to Deadly Poison causing additional procs for mainhand poisons, I think combat is looking at Instant poison on its MH. Rogues who stack armor pen out of its ass might want to look into taking Improved poisons a few points and leaving something behind in relentless strikes. But rogues without high armor pen and rupturless cycles may look into Vile Poisons and using envenom over eviscerate. Combat may turn into a SnD,Rupture,envenom or even just SnD envenom rotation. Either that or they can keep it the same and try it for the best, wounding poisons can still get the extra procs from deadly poison too.

It is to my understanding that if a combat rogue utilizing the new poison mechanic will still use eviscerate over envenom because you will not have the Master Poisoner talent for keeping a 5 stack of DP and will lose dps regaining that stack. Aldrianna posted a chart comparing Vile Poison to Improved Poison talent point allocation and (if memory serves me correct) 3/3 Vial and 4/5 Imp. was ahead.

Blakcghost · 12/08/09, 12:51 PM

It was actually 1/3 vile 4/5 improved. Having 3 in vile would put you over the allotted amount of talent points

Xcuse · 12/08/09, 1:04 PM

The chance to proc a wound poison from FoKing with 2 slow weapons is still much greater than instant - the only reason why you're gonna use instant poisons on a single target is the additional MH-Poison proc from Deadly Poison, making the proc chance of your MH poison less relevant.

So yes, if you want to Min/Max you're still gonna use 2 slow weapons with double wound for AoE.

Mavanas · 12/08/09, 1:57 PM

Well Leto is our expert of FoKing, but I would guess that all aoe will be done with the same poisons as single target dps, meaning instant main hand and deadly offhand. Basically for a very short aoe fight, perhaps around 10-15 seconds, I can see how double instant (not wound if you are specced 20/51/0) would be better. But many aoe situations are longer than that, and given that DP now has 50% chance to apply, with 0.7 hasted speed of the offhand, it will take around 7 seconds to stack it to full and start proccing instant poison on the main hand without an additional application check. Plus the extra damage from DP, I can see how it will beat double instant pretty fast. 15 seconds is just an educated guess, but Leto can plug it into his aoe calculator.

P.S. I think fast offhand will be used, not slow one. Maybe 1.8 dagger for extra FOK damage, but definitely not a slow mace or axe in the offhand.

Leto · 12/08/09, 2:48 PM

With the default settings in my sheet, and the new proc rate, one would expect 5 stacks of deadly in around 25 seconds fok'ing starting from a full energy pool. With AR up that would be around 15 seconds.

It is showing 5 points in imp poisons being slightly better than 4 imp, 1 vile by about 20 dps on 5 targets. The difference in Aldriana's sheet was about 10 dps in the other direction, so I'd imagine using 5 imp 0 vile would be a better option overall, especially considering the situations where combat could be more viable than mutilate: AoE and short duration target switching fights.

A higher proc chance on the poisons would help reduce variability, and also allow deadly poison to stack quicker, making it more useful on sustained aoe fights.

One scenario that I am curious about is whether it might be worth swapping a 1.8 dagger with deadly to the main hand to stack deadly quicker, then swap to one with instant to feed the procs and left the off hand maintain the stacks. I would imagine it simply procs the current hand's poison once it is at 5 stacks, but it may be worth testing to ensure it doesn't proc the poison that was present when reaching 5 stacks.

I still need to model the instant procs once deadly reaches 5 stacks, but I would imagine the relationship between vile and imp would remain the same.

Profound · 12/08/09, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

With the default settings in my sheet, and the new proc rate, one would expect 5 stacks of deadly in around 25 seconds fok'ing starting from a full energy pool. With AR up that would be around 15 seconds.

It is showing 5 points in imp poisons being slightly better than 4 imp, 1 vile by about 20 dps on 5 targets. The difference in Aldriana's sheet was about 10 dps in the other direction, so I'd imagine using 5 imp 0 vile would be a better option overall, especially considering the situations where combat could be more viable than mutilate: AoE and short duration target switching fights.

A higher proc chance on the poisons would help reduce variability, and also allow deadly poison to stack quicker, making it more useful on sustained aoe fights.

One scenario that I am curious about is whether it might be worth swapping a 1.8 dagger with deadly to the main hand to stack deadly quicker, then swap to one with instant to feed the procs and left the off hand maintain the stacks. I would imagine it simply procs the current hand's poison once it is at 5 stacks, but it may be worth testing to ensure it doesn't proc the poison that was present when reaching 5 stacks.

From my understanding DP reacts to your current gear state/stats when the last poison stack is applied, thus it would proc your current MH once it's reached 5 stacks, not the one it started with.

madsushi · 12/08/09, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

One scenario that I am curious about is whether it might be worth swapping a 1.8 dagger with deadly to the main hand to stack deadly quicker, then swap to one with instant to feed the procs and left the off hand maintain the stacks. I would imagine it simply procs the current hand's poison once it is at 5 stacks, but it may be worth testing to ensure it doesn't proc the poison that was present when reaching 5 stacks.

I can confirm from my prior testing in this thread that you can stack Deadly Poison with 2x DP, and then swap your MH at any time to start proc'ing that poison. The determining factor is the MH poison when the DP is refreshed, not when it reaches 5 stacks.

One note is that the speed of the dagger in your MH won't help you proc Deadly Poison any faster, as DP is still a %-chance poison. Any spare dagger would do, although I believe you would see higher physical FoK damage with a slower weapon.

Leto · 12/08/09, 3:02 PM

I simply suggested a 1.8 speed dagger as the swap weapon because the physical damage difference is significant.

Mavanas · 12/08/09, 3:31 PM

Seems like double deadly is the best way to start till your targets are fully DP stacked. How long does that take in your model for combat? Also how long does it take for mutilate while envenom buff is active?
Do you assume you continue autoattacking for extra energy regen?
How do mutilate and combat compare in terms of aoe dps? Is there a new breakeven point in terms of number of targets and fight duration when mutilate overtakes?

I am sorry I am shooting so many questions, I am just interested in the results of your updated model because they will determine the balance between mutilate and combat in Aoe fights.

Leto · 12/08/09, 4:38 PM

I haven't updated the model for the new changes yet. To properly model the new deadly poison change, I'll have to add a time component to adjust for stacking time. I've just been doing one-off calculations based on data such as regen, time between fok's, etc to determine certain information.

I would imagine the time to reach 5 stacks would be roughly cut in half using deadly on two weapons.

Envenom buff would change the expected number of hits before 5 stacks to 8 instead of 10. That would put the time to stack around 20 seconds.

I keep autoattacking checked in the spreadsheet, but there's the option to turn it off. The regen from doing so adds a large amount of FoK dps.