Incoming Rogue Changes Discussion - Page 58

Leto · 12/11/09, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Bangirasu

Well assuming 11.5k dps pre-nerf, you would now be doing 10.9k, or .6k less than you would have. That's a nice chunk, but it's livable and Mutilate is still well ahead of most. The rogues in my guild are well ahead of other classes by considerable amounts, so this should quell a bit of the QQ from the other classes, but still give us plenty of room to shine.

If what Aldriana has theorized about Combat only being 5% behind on single target fights, that .6k damage could easily be made up for with BF/AR/KS on "bursty" fights.

More like a little over 11k dps, but close enough. Dropping the hfb increase to 10% is a ~4.24% nerf to our overall damage.

Arkiel · 12/11/09, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Leto

More like a little over 11k dps, but close enough. Dropping the hfb increase to 10% is a ~4.24% nerf to our overall damage.

Er. Much as I'd like this to be true, how exactly do we get .76% of the lost 5% damage back?

Originally Posted by Sanosu

It should be a (1 - (1.13/1.18))*100% dps decrease I'd imagine. (~4.24%)

^got this from Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets post. Must confess I do not understand it. Apologize for ignorance.

Thanks for the explanation, Sepiroth. Smokescreen fails badly.

Smokescreen · 12/11/09, 1:47 PM

lets take a simple math class...your dps without HFB is 1000.

Add to it the 15% increase from HFB and its 1150

oh wait, it got nerfed to only 10%, so your dps is now 1100

1100/1150 is 95.652%

100% - 95.652% = 4.348%

That is how.

Sephiroth942 · 12/11/09, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by Smokescreen

lets take a simple math class...your dps without HFB is 1000.

Add to it the 15% increase from HFB and its 1150

oh wait, it got nerfed to only 10%, so your dps is now 1100

1100/1150 is 95.652%

100% - 95.652% = 4.348%

That is how.

Close, but Mutilate Rogues glyph HFB.

You do 100 damage without HFB.
You do 118 damage with a glyphed HFB before yesterday's nerf.
You do 113 damage with a glyphed HFB after yesterday's nerf.

5/118 dmg is a 4.24% damage loss.

vanish · 12/12/09, 1:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sephiroth942

Close, but Mutilate Rogues glyph HFB.

You do 100 damage without HFB.
You do 118 damage with a glyphed HFB before yesterday's nerf.
You do 113 damage with a glyphed HFB after yesterday's nerf.

5/118 dmg is a 4.24% damage loss.

i dunno if its a bug or changed their minds or whatever but not counting murder i read 114% dmg with hfb up with glyph.

saedo · 12/12/09, 1:26 AM

Originally Posted by vanish

i dunno if its a bug or changed their minds or whatever but not counting murder i read 114% dmg with hfb up with glyph.

The tooltips won't change without a server restart.

• Aldriana · 12/12/09, 1:34 AM

I tested by gouging rats and found that it did Base Damage * 1.06 (Find Weakness) * 1.04 (Murder) without HFB and Base Damage * 1.06 * 1.04 * 1.13 with glyphed HFB - exactly what you'd expect. So regardless of what tooltips say, the change has been made and it is working exactly the way you'd expect.

Corrahn · 12/12/09, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by saedo

The tooltips won't change without a server restart.

The tooltip won't change until they do another minor patch to fix it. US servers were restarted Thursday, but it still reads 15%. The change is live, it's just that they can't update the tooltip in a hotfix.

Phonebooth · 12/12/09, 1:40 AM

I still can't for the life of me decide if combat is viable now with the HFB change. Guild wants a combat rogue for the savage combat buff but at this point Combat and Mutilate are at a point where its almost worth it but at the same time not worth it. It would be nice to test on more than 4 ICC fights to see if the instance overall favors combat. All in all I am fairly stressed out attempting to calculate if its worth it to switch for me. Weapons being equal currently its a very tough decision.

Valyrra · 12/12/09, 1:48 AM

Originally Posted by Phonebooth

I still can't for the life of me decide if combat is viable now with the HFB change. Guild wants a combat rogue for the savage combat buff but at this point Combat and Mutilate are at a point where its almost worth it but at the same time not worth it. It would be nice to test on more than 4 ICC fights to see if the instance overall favors combat. All in all I am fairly stressed out attempting to calculate if its worth it to switch for me. Weapons being equal currently its a very tough decision.

Savage combat is a very powerful debuff, and there is little to no reason not to have it. That being said, combat and mutilate are DEFINATELY within range of each other to warrant someone being combat for the raid buff.

vanish · 12/12/09, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by Corrahn

The tooltip won't change until they do another minor patch to fix it. US servers were restarted Thursday, but it still reads 15%. The change is live, it's just that they can't update the tooltip in a hotfix.

i'm not talking about the tooltip that still says 18% i'm talking about on you dmg it shows x114 without murder.

fatale · 12/13/09, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by Septicemia

So I picked up Heartpierce yesterday played around on how effective it could be. On a dummy without using SnD and a 1.4 speed OH, uptime of the buff was around 45% (6 procs./min quite some overlapping) on a 5 minute session. Then I did another 5 minutes session with me doing my regular rotation (3+ CP envenoms, SnD up) the buff uptime was 72% (9 Procs/min) then finally, I did reg ToC25 tonight and decided using it, the buff uptime for NB was around 74% (gotta consider the downtimes tho), had a 89% uptime on Jaraxuss (Stayed on boss the whole time, never got legion flames) and 83% on twins. We have an enhacement shaman in raid (so 20% haste) and BL was used on every fights. I also raid with a retarded amoutn of hit due to my guild having pretty lame drop and death's choice dropping 1 time on regular and twice on heroic. I was pretty surprised on the proc rate espeically after reading the earlier posts.

I also got the dagger a few days ago and while doing default attacks on the training dummies with no poison i noticed that i didnt get any energy from the proc. Did 8 mins of default attacks and got 1.63 proc/min ( and 0 energy gained). As soon as i add poisons or specials i get energy. Anyone else seen this ? Could of course be because you're at 100 energy but focused attacks still shows up as energy gained in combatlog if you're at 100 energy.

Ive made a ticket about it but there where no known issues with dagger but at least the GM i talked to escalated the ticket

Xcuse · 12/13/09, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by fatale

I also got the dagger a few days ago and while doing default attacks on the training dummies with no poison i noticed that i didnt get any energy from the proc. Did 8 mins of default attacks and got 1.63 proc/min ( and 0 energy gained). As soon as i add poisons or specials i get energy. Anyone else seen this ?

Ive made a ticket about it but there where no known issues with dagger but at least the GM i talked to escalated the ticket

That's probably because you were energy capped D:

fatale · 12/13/09, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Xcuse

That's probably because you were energy capped D:

Yeah could be but focused attacks still shows up as energy gained even if you're energy capped

Tested it again and if i use energy during the proc you gain +2 energy after so then its not a bug.

Dyz · 12/15/09, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Phonebooth

I still can't for the life of me decide if combat is viable now with the HFB change. Guild wants a combat rogue for the savage combat buff but at this point Combat and Mutilate are at a point where its almost worth it but at the same time not worth it. It would be nice to test on more than 4 ICC fights to see if the instance overall favors combat. All in all I am fairly stressed out attempting to calculate if its worth it to switch for me. Weapons being equal currently its a very tough decision.

Originally Posted by Valyrra

Savage combat is a very powerful debuff, and there is little to no reason not to have it. That being said, combat and mutilate are DEFINATELY within range of each other to warrant someone being combat for the raid buff.

Does your guild raid with an Arms Warrior? Most guilds have an Arms warrior, and they give the same buff as Savage Combat from a talent deep in the Arms tree called blood frenzy. If you do not have an Arms warrior, you could designate a warrior who can switch to arms if your not available. This would allow you to dual spec into Mutilate + Combat, so you may switch if your current raid makeup needs the debuff.