As requested:

This is the latest version, with a number of little fixes here and there.

Since this is now it's own thread, I want to reiterate what I've said before, this Aldriana's Mutilate sheet, with some updates of my own to bring it up to speed. Most of the updated calculations are from his Combat sheet, merely modified to work for mutilate. Before you thank me, thank Aldriana for doing the largest portion of the work. I'm no theorycrafter, my background is in systems integration. If you think there's something wrong with my sheet, you're probably correct, please correct me.

The horde/alliance names for some things are mixed up, based on where I've gleaned information from, it's not that difficult to work out.

I've once again made an attempt at BiS, which seems to be Agi based (ArPen started to fall behind):

T9 Head, Shoulders, Chest, Gloves
Charge of the Demon Lord
Vereesa's Dexterity
Bracers of Dark Determination
Belt of the Merciless Killer
Leggings of the Broken Beast
Treads of the Icewalker
Ring of Callous Aggression
Planestalker Signet
Death's Verdict
Comet's Trail
Talonstrike
Twin Spike MH
Steel Bladebreaker OH

JC/Tailoring

Gems are: one +34 (JC) Exp & one +20Exp gem to get close to the Exp cap. 2x+34Agi JC gems.
The rest are +10Agi/+10Crit in yellow sockets (to get socket bonuses), +10 to all Stats in the helm and +20Agi in everything else.

2/3MP, 1/3 TtT

Result is 9265.16dps (9635.77 with murderable target). As before, I've gotten this wrong a few times now, so if you have better by all means post.

I'd like to work on Evis with 2xIP but I'm not sure I'll get the time any time soon.

I could be wrong, but wouldn't you be at the expertise cap if you changed out the 34 expertise gem for 2x 20 expertise gems and used a 34 agi dragon's eye?

Just over the cap.

It's less dps though. It's only 1-2dps though, so it's probably worth it in reality.

Changing the 34exp to a 34agi is only about 1/2 dps lost, so not noticeable and another option.

According to this spreadsheet, DMC:G is worse then Mirror Truth when I use my current gear. DMC:G sits at 309, with Mirror 317, FotFF 320, Wrathstone 321, Pyrtie at 328. I was under the impression DMC:G was one of the BiS trinkets even during Ulduar.

Row 166 has DMC as a 10 second buff with 15% proc chance instead of 15 and 35% respectively, looks like a copy-paste error while adding the other trinkets. The correct formula for that row should be =B$21*15/(45+1/(B160*0,35))

Fixed. I've uploaded the new version to the first post. I had an issue when I was adding the dark matter trinket which mixed up the DMC:G and DM lines somewhat. I guess it was related to that.

Also got pointed out that Dirk of the Night Watch (normal) didn't have the stats filled in, so I've added those as people are getting that dagger now.

Gem Matching - MH still off (283-299 instead of 267-299)
Gem Matching - Gloves off for Yellow and Blue (114-127 instead of 109-127)

Socket valuing is off. It's using the rare gems instead of epic, and it's assuming you're always getting the socket bonus (but doesn't add socket bonus to total item value). Without a rewrite, a closer assumption is that all sockets will receive Red gems.

Didn't Aldriana state in the SQ/SA thread that you only really need "enough" Expertise to maintain a stable cycle? That capping it is not truly necessary?

I find it hard to believe that a BiS setup requires capped, or near-capped Expertise. Does it really, or is that list operating under the assumption that because you can cap it, it should be capped? Have you looked at the damage output switching some of that Exp to Agi?

If gemming exp didn't give me a higher dps figure, I would have listed agi gems instead.

Gemming exp gives 9258.69, all agi gives 9257.72. It's splitting hairs really.

The EP value for exp drops dramatically as you approach the cap, which is why it's gemmed short of the cap (208) and not over it. Swapping the 34exp gem for a 34agi gem, and running 3x20exp (which gives 214 expertise rating, just over the cap) is less dps again (9257.11).


As for the other issues, socket values is going to require some thought. I knew doing it that way was going to come back to haunt me.

First, you're going to want to updated socket values to score based on new gems rather than old gems - change the 8s and 16s in Calcs R418 ans S418 to 10s and 20s. You might also want to include ArPen when scoring red gems.

In terms of quick and dirty fixes to the socket bonus problem, I'd advocate entering two versions of each item - one with matching sockets and the socket bonus added in, and one with all red scokets and no socket bonus. It's sort of a cheap hack, but it'll get you pointed in the right direction.

The long term solution would be to take the back end of the Mut sheet and plug it into the front end of the combat sheet to use its socketing model (which is a lot better), and while that's probably not *quite* as bad as you might expect, it's still a pretty significant amount of work.

Gem values have been updated, I just can't upload the sheet currently. It's an easy change. ArPen? Maybe. ArPen in general probably needs more thought with regards to mutilate.

I've always considered the long term solution but at the time I just wanted a quick solution to get the socket bonuses working better than just including the bonuses in the gear per the original sheet. I really didn't consider the effects on scoring. Frankly, I've never put much emphasis on the scoring of gear.

I'm coming up to a few weeks when I won't get a chance to work on this. It's unlikely I'll have that change in place by then. It was never my goal to feature the same complexity as the combat sheet, I just personally wanted the ability to adjust for 10 man raid buffs, and saw the opportunity to release what I'd completed.

EDIT: Just noticed that half the 2T9 calculations are wrong. Haven't copied the formula back from column W (row is Avg 2/5 T9 Energy Gained) so columns B to V were using the old assumption of just using 40. It's about a 9 dps difference. Makes me wonder which copy of the sheet I did update though.

Ok, minor update uploaded for the small things above.

I've had some thoughts about the gem strategies/scoring, currently the only issue I'm seeing is the nightmare tears and how to handle them in scoring. Whether or not I bother worrying about that, we'll see.

Can someone show me where focused Attacks is implemented? Or is this to hard to model. I am mostly curious to how Hit Rating effects the chance to Proc the +2 energy and does that improve the AEP of hit rating.

You should update the Perilous Bite stats. It is currently the stats before the up of Hard Mod weapons.
You also miss a Red Socket on the Magnetized Projectile Emitter.

Thanks for the great contribution for the rogue community, you make great job.

Hit rating has no effect whatsoever on Focused Attack proc rates assuming you're above the yellow hit can and not crit capped. I suggest you take a look around the forums and read up on the one-roll nature of white attacks to gain a greater understanding of why this is the case.

In terms of modeling: it's actually applied in several pieces for simplicity in modeling; the final contribution is in row 205, but there are important pieces of it in other rows (such as rows 199 and 221). I'm not going to go into great detail into how it's set up and why; the calculations are all there if you want to look them over.

Something to keep in mind regarding expertise ... presumably, the spreadsheet is modeling ideal positioning. In practice, that isn't always possible. When you have to stand in front of a target, a point of expertise isn't just cutting the dodge chance by 0.25%, it's also decreasing the parry chance.

From my experience being a mutilate enstusiastic i can say that get the expertise is not as important as it seems. Once we are dpsing the boss on the backwards, the expertise will be of no worth. But the problem, is that the most fights nowadays is not possible to only dps on the back. So, i would stack it, as im trying to do it.

In time:

Wrong. There is still a 6.5% chance to have your attacks dodged even when attacking from behind, which is why you need 26 expertise to avoid being dodged (1 expertise = 0.25% reduced chance for attacks to be dodged/parried). If it was a simple matter of just "getting behind the boss", then no one would be advocating reaching the expertise cap. The real reason we get behind the boss is to avoid having our attacks parried, which not only reduces the number of our attacks that land, it can also cause the tank to get "parry-gibbed".

Just saw on Aldriana's combat thread that there is some talks about the rupture free rotation maybe being possible with higher end gear. Would this also apply for mutilate rogues as well? I'm assuming with the 2 pt T9 bonus that rupture needs to be a factor in our rotation regardless...and would imagine that would apply for combat rogues as well unless they're thinking about going straight into offset pieces. Just curious to see if this had any bearing on mut rogues. Thaela have you considered this at all?

Also, I've been thinking about our rotation a bit lately. With the t9 2 piece bonus, I'm sure you'll have to actively monitor your energy to know when the bonus procs but what are people's thoughts on how this will affect our rotation? Would it have any impact? My thought is that on the rare occurrence that your finisher did not award you a combo point and your mutilate doesn't crit, so you're sitting there with 2 combo points and the bonus procs, it might be worth while to hit mutilate again for a possible 4 pt finisher/ 5 pt finisher. You wouldn't be wasting a combo pt in this situation. Or are people doing this already? My mentality has been to dump the 2 pts into a envenom especially if SnD is low.

Also I rarely refresh rupture unless I have 4 combo points but I'm thinking that even with 3 pts it might be worth it to refresh rupture just for the chance that the bonus will proc. Is this also the case for t8? Does the Crit chance on rupture make it worth it to refresh rupture with 3 pts? and upon the next mutilate if you have 4 pts should you refresh rupture again or let it tick out? What are people's thoughts?

Thanks. (figured it would be the best to ask the questions here- Please let me know otherwise)

You should never use a finisher with less than 4 pts unless your snd is about to drop and you need to envenom to keep it going. That is the only case and if it occurs, your rotation fell apart for whatever reason (usually due to having to move out).

Make sure that you do envenoms when you are at >60 energy if at all possible as well so that if this situation occurs, you can mutilate twice while the envenom buff is up.

So...you're saying that if you have 3pts you would mutilate again? isn't that waste of a combo point assuming your next mutilate crits?

and what do you think about the t9 bonus of rupture cutting down the next move's energy by 40? Would you still not refresh rupture unless you had 4 pts?

Long and short, that 3rd CP isn't "real" or guaranteed so you're not wasting it. (That's not exactly how it works but if thinking of it that way helps, then so be it.)

As for the T9 2pc bonus, it's a 2% proc rate (reportedly) and while a proc might put you ahead for a short period in your cycle, overall that kind of strategy won't work with that low of a proc rate because the damage loss from all those low power ruptures won't be made up for by the few procs you get per fight. The best strategy is to adjust your "rotation" to allow maximum uptime of those 4-5 CP ruptures rather than spamming lower power ruptures.