Yuntiff

Now that the Anub street date lockout is over, I was wondering if anybody has done any extensive testing / theorycraftig for 25 man heroic Anub. From everything I've seen, it seems the way to go is: Combat, 2 slow MHs (2.6), double WP, keep up SnD and rupture on Anub while glyphed FoK spamming. AR & BFing in conjunction with the FoK spam on adds, and KSpree when you have only Anub within range (adds are dead for the moment). I might be completely off the mark, but that's the point of this thread. Any (intelligent) pointers are welcome as this is a boss where the case can be made that conventional rogue wisdom doesn't completely cut it in this heavily add burning encounter.

 

Neckface

A 1.8 speed dagger will do more FoK damage than a 2.6 speed mace/fist/sword/axe of the same iLevel.

Weapon Damage:
105% * 1.8 = 1.89
70% * 2.6 = 1.82

Attack Power (with normalized coefficients):
105% * 1.7 = 1.785
70% * 2.4 = 1.68

 

• Feist-Mok

With a correspondingly lower Wound Poison proc rate.

 

Yuntiff

Is the lower WP application rate a worthwhile tradeoff for the increased FoK weapon damage? Furthermore, for somebody who might be HnS or mace spec, would a 1.8 dagger be a sensible option for the OH for the higher damage (provided it is worth the lower WP rate) even though you aren't getting HnS procs or the passive ArP in the OH with your dagger?

 

Leto

I just did some semi-rough calculations based on values in Aldriana's spreadsheet for mechanics, and came to the following conclusions with regards to fok dps and off hand weapon choice using a combat spec:

• A 1.8 speed dagger will generally yield more damage over time than a 2.6 speed non-dagger of equal ilvl while auto-attacking a target.
• A 2.6 speed non-dagger will generally yield more damage over time than a 1.8 speed dagger of equal ilvl while not auto-attacking a target.

The extra poison proc chance from a slow weapon will out-do the physical damage increase from using a dagger, but the energy regen lost from fewer combat potency procs results in less overall dps.

Note that this is in a sustained aoe situation. Over a short duration, the slow non-dagger should yield more damage since the combat potency energy regen likely hasn't yielded enough energy for an extra fan of knives yet.

Rogue at heart.

 

Almehym

Leto, how sustained would you consider Anub hardmode to be then?

I generally use a 2.6 axe in my offhand. I use Mind Numb on it depending on which of the rogues in loses the roll of the night, and having a higher proc rate is good for consistency. I generally don't find it a good idea to stack AR + BF on add waves, as using them separate is better for tank threat. Speaking of tank threat, I use the ToTT glyph as well as the FoK glyph so I can get 1-2 more rounds of threat on our tank. I find that with running out to mark a mob (and make sure it hits the tank first), the standard six seconds for tricks is usually too short for me to get even one FoK off for all the adds sometimes.

Another tip is to have an offhand macro (a simple equipslot 17 is what I use) and have a quick dagger with anesthetic on it for the submerge phases. It's a good way to keep poison stacks down across the raid, as enraged bugs can't be snared or rooted.

Finally, for adds, I have an all-in-one macro that marks my target, sets it as my focus (for the giant cast bar for interrupting) and casts tricks on our add-tank.

Just remember that you need to be promoted (and turn off boss mod marking) to set icons, and watch range on your tank so you haven't run too far before trying to mark, or else you'll go splat.

 

Wodahs

Almehym, mind numb is a 50% proc, not a ppm like wound, so if your running wound on your oh, you dont have to run a slow oh.

 

Almehym

Well don't I feel silly. I completely forgot that the utility poisons didn't get changed with the ppm revamp. Thanks Wodah, but now my conundrum is to use a dagger for increased FoK damage and combat potency procs from my offhand, or stick with the axe for HnS procs from my MH? I expect the former would end up better, and it would be more threat on the tank during the initial ToTT, which is good.

 

Leto

According to the spreadsheet, the cp regen difference between a 1.8 and a 2.6 speed off hand would be ~1 more energy per second. Say it takes 15 seconds on average to kill a wave of adds, that 15 extra energy won't result in an extra fok for that add phase. Over the course of the whole fight though, you'll likely have 12 or 13 add phases, so the extra energy would result in around 4 extra fok's total.

Also note that I left out the dmg differences for simplicity's sake. In the setup I used, the slow weapon resulted in ~100 dmg per hit (+200 poison - 100 phys), so around 500 more per fok on an add wave. Say you fok ~80 times in those 13 waves, that would be an extra 40000 dmg with a slow off hand over fok'ing 80 times, but fok'ing 84 times with a fast off hand dagger would be an extra 80000 dmg on top of that.

I'm not sure what effect the off hand would have on your single target dps phases during the fight, since weapon specs complicate things.

Rogue at heart.

 

Kurius

Given the nature of phase 3, is it worth speccing something like 23/44/4 as opposed to standard combat specs?

 

greenjello

I guess it comes down to whether or not IP/IP with imp. poisons is more dps (FoK spamming on 5 targets) than WP/WP and a killing spree every 80 seconds; since Prey on the Weak will almost never be active during this phase.

On the other hand you will lose a decent chunk of dps Pre-P3. If your guild has no problems getting him to P3 before the end of his second ground phase (without bloodlust) then it might be worth a try.

 

• Feist-Mok

I tried a spec along those lines a few weeks back, with pretty horrid results. Killing Spree and PoTW are both really potent, and even in P3, with a rogue attack speed, and JoL, you'll often be sitting ~10-15% putting PoTW up for about half the phase - longer if you get PC with cloak on CD.

 

Kytrarewn

I tried a 23/48 spec last night, and a standard 18/51/2 tonight.

Last night and tonight, I glyphed AR, FOK and SS. The 18/51/2 outdamaged the 23/48/0 significantly across the course of the fight, and relentless strikes seemed to help out more than I might expect.

One thing I've been considering, and that I intend to try on Monday is using a glyph of SnD rather than SS. Given how much of the fight is spent using FOK rather than single-target DPSing anub himself, it seems like the extra 4.5 seconds of potential uptime from your standard low-CP SnDs should help out significantly.

One other point- You're not going to be able to get/keep Rupture up that much- Don't worry about your set bonuses, just go for your stuff with the highest potential stats. Single target DPS is only rarely the issue- getting down the adds in time such that all the single target DPS can focus on anub, on the other hand, is.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

remanis

I was also using the "poison spec" (18/51/2) on our last try. However, I am not completely sure on what weapons and poisons to use?

Is WP/WP with 2 slow weapons the way to go? Or WP/DP with slow mh and fast oh?

Also, I was using glyph of TotT, FoK and SS. As I am most of the time only FoKing, glyph of KS, AR or BF would be better though maybe?

Edit: 25man HC

 

mdn

Giving up Combat Potency procs from a 1.4 speed offhand is, in my opinion and experience, not at all worth it. I use normal weapons and poisons (wound/deadly) and spec 18/51/2 (glyph FoK over Eviscerate) for Anub. From what I've found, it's the best balance of damage on the boss and damage to adds.

I'm also the only rogue in our guild, so I have to use my TotT on every new add set to help our warrior pick them up, obviously trying to use AR during one set of adds and Blade Flurry+Killing Spree on the second set, and I'm generally able to use cooldowns on all but two sets of adds throughout the fight.

 

Mathum

Is that 10 man? Might be wrong but AOE'ing 5 mobs in 25man seems pretty different results than than AOE'ing 3 mobs in 10 man.

I've been experimenting with the following weapons in 25man:

-CQC
Facebreaker - Nemesis Blade (heroic) - Stygian Bladebreaker (normal)

-HnS
Hellscream Slicer - Blood Fury (heroic)

Axes appear to come out ahead on the ~4 nights of attempts experimenting. Granted I have a 258 axe but the results were noticeable. Glyphs FOK/AR/SS using double WP I was noticeably ahead of the other rogue every pull using my Axes and we were about tied when using my daggers.

Glyph's KS and ToTT I found like wasted slots when you could have AR instead. Killing spree un-glyphed will refresh in 2 minutes which is exactly when Anub emerges again for ground phase you dont really need it during phase 2. ToTT glyph I also found undesirable of our tanks one is horrible and sub-par and even he had no issues holding threat I stopped using ToTT altogether. Just my experience take with it what you will.

 

mdn

If you're speaking to me, I'm writing about 25-man, as in 10-man you can pretty much do whatever you want and still beat it.

As I said, we use 1 warrior to tank all 4 adds, and it's necessary for me to put as much threat on him as possible--it's also helpful, we found, to aoe adds as quickly as possible, as you're sometimes able to kill them just before or as their Shadowstrike timers are up, which makes the fight that much safer.

 

Mathum

Sorry, one warrior on adds and one rogue in the guild sounded like 10 man.

I thought they nurfed one tank adds tanking. That makes the fight extremely easier. Adds die faster with one extra dps, and dps uloads faster not having to wait for 2 tanks getting adds positioned exactly perfect. I want to bring it up with my raid leader, but how do you deal with adds with shadow strike?

 

remanis

We actually also only use 1 warrior tank on adds who is "block capped". 8/10 cases it works but sometimes it can happen that he gets instagibbed, but it happens very seldom.

DBM timers show the shadow strike and if the adds only get interupted by dedicated interupters (e.g. no one else interupts) it is enough to use 2 AOE interupters in rotation. But usually as we get closer to phase 3, the timers can be a little off so our interupters have to guess, usually works fine.

So to get back to the rogue tips, 18/51/2, normal weapons and poisons (slow MH, fast OH with WP/DP) and FoK, KS and AR glyphs are the way togo? I will try it for our next raid.

 

Kytrarewn

Most folks seem to prefer FOK, AR and SS, but it's entirely dependent on your guild's tanking strategy and whatnot.

Sadly- with the nerf in 3.2.2, you're not going to see yourself anywhere near the top of the charts even with perfect spec, positioning, and play.

I've found that my DPS seems better when I use both AR and BF on the first set of adds, rather than overlapping cooldowns, but again, it's all dependent on the raid and how long it takes them to AoE down the adds- note that the second set of adds each phase doesn't really "matter" so much as the first set of adds. Obviously, you have to kill them in a reasonable amount of time in fear of anub chasing one of your add tanks, but you're not really fighting for more DPS time on anub so much as just reducing any potential complications. That being said... the fight doesn't really start until P3, so why worry about P1 and P2.

The reason I like Glyph of SnD better is just that my experience thus far with anub is that combat potency is a big thing on this fight, and having the extra 4.5 seconds of SND time, especially with low-CP cycles to maintain SND while FOKing, feels like it should make for a more reliable cycle and save more energy than Glyph of SS, given that I'm not really pushing for a full 4s/5r/5e.

Raid makeup will determine whether you use wound/deadly or instant/deadly or double instant (I don't currently raid with any arms warriors, so we need to keep up a poison for savage combat) and tank strategy will determine glyphing (KS is far more valuable in a 1-tank strategy than it is in a 2 tank one, as one key example).

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

Profound

I've been curious to see if 38/33 is a viable spec for pure FoK spamming, however I'm not sure how effective focused attacks is over combat potency. With a 50% crit rate on 5 targets, and with vitality, you'd be getting 47.5 energy per 3 seconds. For those still using the t8 bonus it would bump that to 52.5 energy per 3 (rough math). The question would be does having AR, savage combat (obviously there needs to be someone else putting it on), and PoTW outweigh the amount of FoKs youre doing.

 

Andeh

I switched from using glyphs of SS/SnD/FoK to SS/TotT/FoK last night because we have problems with healers agro'ing Burrowers while they run in, even if a Hunter tries to MD tap the back two and Warrior picks up the front two. (This is with a 1 tank strategy). So what we switched to was having the 2 rogues run out and tag the back 2 Burrowers and run in with them. The Tricks glyph gives enough uptime that even after tagging the mobs, we can still get several FoK off on all the Burrowers once they're rounded up. However, I do think that I will switch the SS glyph for SnD, since I'm only using 1-2 point SnD, and without the glyph I was having to put refresh it about 3 times instead of 2, which (assuming Ruthlessness didn't proc) is nearly the cost of an extra FoK.

It's possible that we're "doing it wrong" but the pickups have gotten a lot more solid since we switched to this, not only in terms of threat but the warrior moves less, meaning he's less likely to get gibbed from behind.

Also, Blade Twisting is really, really annoying if you're stuck Tricks'ing the Burrowers in.

 

Yuntiff

Yes it does. As people have mentioned earlier, even with your health skimming at 10-15%, that will give PotW approx 30/50% uptime in p3 and 100% uptime for the rest of the fight. Just because p3 is where the major crunch is, you are still chasing an enrage timer, and do need single target dps on Anub. While AR might not be up for all the add phases, it should be available for the first set of adds and another set either during p3, or right before. So while AR isn't the make it or break it ability (glyphing it gives it even more value), PotW and your phase 1 dps will suffer tremendously, as well as your single target dps on Anub himself.

 

• Aldriana

The thing to keep in mind is that while PotW will have 30-50% uptime on *Anub* in P3, it will only have ~10-15% uptime on the *adds* in P3. So the benefits of PotW are severely reduced in P3. That said, it's still a great talent for P1 and P2; hence, the question is which DPS check is harder, the P1/2 one or the P3 one - a question which I imagine depends somewhat on your raid comp.

In terms of FA vs AR: FA is something like 2.5 bonus energy per FoK, as (unless it's been fixed at some point) only MH FoK hits can proc FA). Thus the comparison is 2.5 energy per FoK vs 150 energy per AR; the question, then, is whether you do more or less than 60 FoKs between each AR. The answer to which in P1/2 is, honestly, pretty clearly no, due to the kite phases giving AR time to come back up while you're not FoKing. In P3, it's a little less clear-cut.

So: a build like 33/38/0 *might* be able to do marginally better P3 DPS, but at the expense of quite a bit of P1/2 DPS; moreover, as you're not AoEing continuously, you will lose some DPS throughout the fight while single targeting. Hence, I'm somewhat skeptical that such a build is worthwhile.

 

Profound

We've moved from 2 to 1 add tank, thus I have to keep up mind numbing on the adds at all times to assist with interrupts. That's why I even considered the build. Mainly, since I have to FoK the entire fight regardless of phases, would this be a viable spec to consider?