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Old 12/11/09, 9:37 AM   #151
Leto
King Hippo
 
Leito
Troll Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by giuseppe View Post
Question is what does more AoE? 20/51/0 with 5 Improved or 20/51/0 with 3 Vile and 2 Improved? Or maybe some other combination.
This depends largely on the fight, as it varies with AoE duration and poison usage.

For instant/instant, or instant/deadly, 5 improved 0 vile should yield more damage due to the increased proc rate. If you need to use wound, vile will do more, etc.

Rogue at heart.

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Old 12/12/09, 12:06 AM   #152
Mathum
Banned
 
Undead Rogue
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by Kytrarewn View Post
I tried mutilate on Anub this week for shits and giggles and found that, while the DPS delta was pretty small across the course of the fight with combat (we had some severe disconnect/latency issues so we put in several attempts), having the burst on demand of the combat spec/glyphing (AR+FOK+SS) was convenient.

Across the course of the fight, with mostly the same gear between combat and mutilate (Combat weapon is Golden Saronite Dragon, Mutilate MH is Gouge (heroic)), Combat still came up slightly on top.
For us Combat is waaay more than "slightly" on top. Our combat rogue (Myself) was pulling 11k DPS on the kill and our Mutilate rogues were below the moonkins.. AKA last place, or ~7k dps on the meter.

It's obvious the majority of bosses currently Mutilate is way out ahead. However, for top guilds the only boss that matters which is Anub, Combat is clearly Superior and that is an understatement.

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Old 12/12/09, 3:02 AM   #153
Joigahdenn
Piston Honda
 
Joigahdenn's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Cenarius
Originally Posted by Mathum View Post
For us Combat is waaay more than "slightly" on top. Our combat rogue (Myself) was pulling 11k DPS on the kill and our Mutilate rogues were below the moonkins.. AKA last place, or ~7k dps on the meter.

It's obvious the majority of bosses currently Mutilate is way out ahead. However, for top guilds the only boss that matters which is Anub, Combat is clearly Superior and that is an understatement.
What spec the rogues in your guild are going depends entirely on how you're doing it and what problems you're running into. If your AoE is good enough to down the adds without help of the rogues but you're having trouble getting Anub down once your in P3, maybe going mutilate to increase single target could help due to the loss of Prey on the Weak. Of course this could also go differently, if your rogues are combat and thus the adds are downed faster giving more overall time on Anub for the entire raid, maybe thats better. I would avoid making overall blanket statements like this, high dps isn't always the same as effective dps (though often it is).

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Old 12/12/09, 6:32 AM   #154
Mathum
Banned
 
Undead Rogue
 
Boulderfist
Originally Posted by Joigahdenn View Post
What spec the rogues in your guild are going depends entirely on how you're doing it and what problems you're running into. If your AoE is good enough to down the adds without help of the rogues but you're having trouble getting Anub down once your in P3, maybe going mutilate to increase single target could help due to the loss of Prey on the Weak. Of course this could also go differently, if your rogues are combat and thus the adds are downed faster giving more overall time on Anub for the entire raid, maybe thats better. I would avoid making overall blanket statements like this, high dps isn't always the same as effective dps (though often it is).
I agree I could be wrong but doubtful..combat is pretty obvliously better for Anub. Bladeflurry+Killing Spree and Adrenaline rush is too good for chewing up adds giving the whole raid more anub dps time and BF+KS come up twice during phase 3. If the damage were a little closer between Mutilate and Combat then there might be some discrepancy but the gap is massive.

Last edited by Mathum : 12/17/09 at 2:55 PM.

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Old 12/12/09, 11:15 AM   #155
Sephina
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Forscherliga (EU)
With 3.3 out, i am a little clueless what is the best to do, when we are going to Anub HM this week. I read the whole thread a few weeks ago and it really helped to kill Anub, thanks for all that work here. So I hope i could get some point in the right direction again

Leto always advised people of the fact, that the "right thing" on Anub depends on the guild strategy and which task the rogue have to perform in this strategy. So i will explain that first, before i ask for help:

We do Anub with 2 rogues and a 1 tank-strategy. We don´t have any dps problems at all and we only had some hard time with the shadow strikes. Therefore our priority is to AoE the adds. When the adds die, there is about 6-10 seconds left on the timer. Both rogues go with mind numbing poison on the OH, so the cast can be interrupted, even with a broken timer. It turns out to be safer with both rogues using the poison. One rouge stays at Anub all the time and the other one collect one add for the tank (2 hunters and the tank himself collect the 3 other adds, when they spawn). Both rogues FoK the adds, when they reached the Addtank.

We both used in 3.2.2 the 18/51/2 (CQC) Specc with [The Spinebreaker] Wound Poison and [Icefall Blade] Mind Numbing Poison.

I hope someone could help me with this questions, i couldn´t answer myself:
1)
After i read the last posts, i think it would be the "right thing" for our tactic, to use the 20/51/0 specc (3 Vile Poisons, 2 Improved Poisons and CQC) with IP/MD. Is that correct?

2)
Leto wrote yesterday, that with a 5 Points Improved Poisons specc you can use IP/DP or IP/IP for FoK. We need about 30 Seconds to down the adds each time, which Poison set would we superior in this situation? Can I simulate that myself with Leto´s old FoK Spreadsheet?

3)
I don´t know, what update in FoK-DPS a rouge with 20/51/0 specc (5 points Improved Poisons) and IP/DP (respectively IP/IP) would get, compared to the other specc above. So I am curious, if it would be worth to have one rouge with this 5 points improved poisons specc and the rogue that collects a add anyway, uses mind numbing on both weapons. Both to be safe, without 2 sources of MD, we sufferd some single-figure precent Wipes, caused by Shadow Strikes.

4)
I recently got [Stormpike Cleaver] and [Lionhead Slasher] and play axes rouge ever since. So i am thinking about the useability of axes for Anub HM.
Leto said on page 4, that FoK affect HnS, but HnS doesn't affect FoK, so CQC would be superior, because CQC affect FoK.
Should i stick with Spinebreaker/Icefall Blade using a CQC specc or should I switch to a HnS specc with Stormpike Cleaver/Lionhead Slasher or Stormpike Cleaver/Icefall Blade.

I hope i don´t asked too many questions, but with encounter like Anub Arak, I realize again how helpless I would be without this great community. Thank You for helping me

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Old 12/14/09, 7:04 AM   #156
Levitan
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Proudmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by Sephina View Post
With 3.3 out, i am a little clueless what is the best to do, when we are going to Anub HM this week. I read the whole thread a few weeks ago and it really helped to kill Anub, thanks for all that work here. So I hope i could get some point in the right direction again

Leto always advised people of the fact, that the "right thing" on Anub depends on the guild strategy and which task the rogue have to perform in this strategy. So i will explain that first, before i ask for help:

We do Anub with 2 rogues and a 1 tank-strategy. We don´t have any dps problems at all and we only had some hard time with the shadow strikes. Therefore our priority is to AoE the adds. When the adds die, there is about 6-10 seconds left on the timer. Both rogues go with mind numbing poison on the OH, so the cast can be interrupted, even with a broken timer. It turns out to be safer with both rogues using the poison. One rouge stays at Anub all the time and the other one collect one add for the tank (2 hunters and the tank himself collect the 3 other adds, when they spawn). Both rogues FoK the adds, when they reached the Addtank.

We both used in 3.2.2 the 18/51/2 (CQC) Specc with [The Spinebreaker] Wound Poison and [Icefall Blade] Mind Numbing Poison.

I hope someone could help me with this questions, i couldn´t answer myself:
1)
After i read the last posts, i think it would be the "right thing" for our tactic, to use the 20/51/0 specc (3 Vile Poisons, 2 Improved Poisons and CQC) with IP/MD. Is that correct?


4)
I recently got [Stormpike Cleaver] and [Lionhead Slasher] and play axes rouge ever since. So i am thinking about the useability of axes for Anub HM.
Leto said on page 4, that FoK affect HnS, but HnS doesn't affect FoK, so CQC would be superior, because CQC affect FoK.
Should i stick with Spinebreaker/Icefall Blade using a CQC specc or should I switch to a HnS specc with Stormpike Cleaver/Lionhead Slasher or Stormpike Cleaver/Icefall Blade.

I hope i don´t asked too many questions, but with encounter like Anub Arak, I realize again how helpless I would be without this great community. Thank You for helping me
To 1)

Dont forget the woundpoisen effect on anub´arak for p3, i would prefer WP/WP but that depends on your raid, we dont have any MS Warrys so our rogues use wound poisen there...

To 4)
Im playing with axe specc and i cant say i make lower dps then other rouges with CQC, i would go with the better weapons.

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Old 12/14/09, 7:41 AM   #157
yunero
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Mannoroth (EU)
doesn't hunter provide the MS debuff in there normal rotation?

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Old 12/14/09, 8:22 AM   #158
Levitan
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Proudmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by yunero View Post
doesn't hunter provide the MS debuff in there normal rotation?
Im not entirly sure about that, but didnt they stack together? I thought i read something about 75% if both debuff are on anub...
But like i said im not really sure about this fact.

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Old 12/14/09, 11:54 AM   #159
Seditions
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Levitan View Post
Im not entirly sure about that, but didnt they stack together? I thought i read something about 75% if both debuff are on anub...
But like i said im not really sure about this fact.
Aimed shot (50% MS debuff) is part of their normal rotation and should be up full time on Anub unless they are on full time add duty and aren't keeping up their rotation or the adds aren't dying fast enough.

There is no stacking of the 50% debuff.

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Old 12/16/09, 7:55 AM   #160
Sephina
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Forscherliga (EU)
Originally Posted by Levitan View Post
To 1)

Dont forget the woundpoisen effect on anub´arak for p3, i would prefer WP/WP but that depends on your raid, we dont have any MS Warrys so our rogues use wound poisen there...

To 4)
Im playing with axe specc and i cant say i make lower dps then other rouges with CQC, i would go with the better weapons.
to1)
As already answered by others, using Wound Poison shouldn´t be necessary with Hunters in your Setup. I asked our hunters and they said, we rogues don´t have to worry about the MS Debuff. So I used Instant Poison instead.

to2)
I don´t know. After a little research, i found out, that HnS not only doesn´t affect FoK but also doesn´t affect Poisons as well. CQC affect both. And when I look at Leto´s FoK Spreadsheet, then I see that an upgrade in Weapon DPS from 196 to 216 isn´t a hugh DPS increase. But using a 1.8 Speed dagger in Oh is always a lot better. So the other rogue in my guild and I decided to stick with CQC and Fist/Dagger for Anub.

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Old 12/17/09, 11:39 AM   #161
giuseppe
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Dunemaul (EU)
This is the spec that in the Aldriana's spreadsheet also has the highest single target theoretical dps but should you want to maximize I think you can change a few things. There have been some posts about off hand FoK attacks not proccing HnS and since you're using dagger OH CQC probably will lead to higher overall damage. Also 5/5 imp. poisons will increase FOK overall damage when using instant poison and the trade-off in single target DPS is neglectable.

Only thing I'm unsure about is Slice and Dice glyph. I use SS glyph as it's a nice chunk of single target DPS also. I do realize that slice and dice glyph gets you through an add phase wthout having to refresh it and that certainly sounds sweet. At the start of the fight you have enough time to start up slice and dice and get some more combo points in there before the adds come... so for the first phase 1 it's just a matter of the energy cost of refreshing it. In later phases SnD glyph is gonna be more effective.

I really enjoy TotT glyph but I do not know if 6 seconds only is enough for the threat that we are generating on cooldowns. I mean I don't have the greatest gear in the game but I hit 17K dps on the first wave without any TotT hysterias etc. Depends on a lot of things I guess.

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Old 12/17/09, 1:56 PM   #162
Leto
King Hippo
 
Leito
Troll Rogue
 
No WoW Account
The snd glyph seems like it would be suboptimal to me.

From a damage to adds perspective:
The glyph adds 3 seconds of snd time.
Having snd up increases energy regen by roughly 1/sec.
That results in 3 extra energy per Add wave.
Assuming about 8 to 10 waves of adds per fight, that yields 24 to 30 energy over the whole fight. Sure there will be more during single target phases, but I'm focusing on add damage here.

Contrast this with the AR glyph, which yields 50 additional energy per AR(you can usually do 3 per fight), and the difference becomes clear.

Rogue at heart.

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Old 12/17/09, 2:22 PM   #163
stokastic
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Cyrak View Post
modified my earlier spec in accordance with the 3.3 changes, same thing in general except instead of 2/5rs and 3/3 vp it's 1/3 vp 4/5 imp poisons! similar gear setup to what i posted with before, still rockin the 2pc tier 8.

exceptional result:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

this pretty much remains the go-to setup for this fight imo.
I'm not sure if this is a troll or what, but based on that parse, you're not using your current 20/51/0 offspec, but some other spec with 2/2 remorseless attacks. That is surely suboptimal, and it seems you know this by your current 20/51/0 offspec. So I guess I'm confused as to why you were using remorseless attacks there in the first place.

Regarding glyphs, I've been doing this fight for several weeks now and and have not had the need to glyph TotT. Using FoK, SS, and AR has worked well for me. If, however, you're getting hysteria or tricks, the extra 4 seconds on TotT would help keep you from pulling aggro while doing more dps than the SS glyph would provide. In that case, it's a no brainer to use TotT over SS.

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Old 12/17/09, 6:33 PM   #164
Cyrak
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by stokastic View Post
I'm not sure if this is a troll or what, but based on that parse, you're not using your current 20/51/0 offspec, but some other spec with 2/2 remorseless attacks. That is surely suboptimal, and it seems you know this by your current 20/51/0 offspec. So I guess I'm confused as to why you were using remorseless attacks there in the first place.

Regarding glyphs, I've been doing this fight for several weeks now and and have not had the need to glyph TotT. Using FoK, SS, and AR has worked well for me. If, however, you're getting hysteria or tricks, the extra 4 seconds on TotT would help keep you from pulling aggro while doing more dps than the SS glyph would provide. In that case, it's a no brainer to use TotT over SS.
not a troll, ive been respeccing my offspec extremely frequently. i was using remorseless attacks because i virtually never (and sometimes literally never) use eviscerate during the fight, and i get benefit from it during the burrow phase. that spec was designed for anub only, as was my gear setup.

i did not get tricks or hysteria or any other unusual raid buffs, but that is the current world of logs #1 rogue attempt for anub. the tricks glyph is because up until last week i have been the only raiding rogue in our guild, so i've had to tricks the adds to the add tank by myself. i wasn't comfortable with giving our new rogue any responsibilities in the fight. i could have definitely got some additional damage out of glyphing ss instead of tricks. i also had about 10 seconds of dead time before phase 3 because we halted dps to wait for debuffs to fall off.

i went over my spec that i used for this earlier in the thread i believe. i basically took 3/3 ruthlessness 2/2 remorseless attacks, 2/5 cqc because i happened to be expertise heavy since i am normally mutilate. everything else is relatively cookie cutter.

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Old 01/12/10, 1:31 PM   #165
Rahdik
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Earthen Ring
There is a reference in Tankspot that says Anub'arak is immune to healing debuffs in 25 man Heroic. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I don't know when it would have changed as I never saw it in a patch note.

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Old 01/12/10, 6:46 PM   #166
 sp00n
banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
Did him today, didn't notice taking it any longer than usual. So either they changed both immunity and health received, or its simply a hoax.


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Old 01/12/10, 6:55 PM   #167
Mideci
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
I did it yesterday and on one pull I accidentally put up IP instead of WP. So he's definitely not immune because when WP wasn't up, his health needle more or less didn't move. And it did once WP was restored.

I think the fight would be close to impossible without a healing debuff.

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Old 01/13/10, 6:01 AM   #168
Loot
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Sporeggar (EU)
We had him without wound for 5 or so seconds, he outhealed our dmg, so he should not be immune

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Old 01/13/10, 10:59 AM   #169
Cyni01
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Burning Legion (EU)
We killed him 2 nights ago.
We generally have an MM hunter keep up the MS debuff but as we were without any of our hunters that night (slackers) I was on MS duty.
The Wound Poison debuff was present on the boss the entire P3 and I double checked both my combat log & our WOL report to confirm it.

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Old 01/18/10, 4:41 AM   #170
evl
Piston Honda
 
evl's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
<nam>
Stormscale (EU)
Does anyone know if it's worth keeping up SnD with 1CP SnDs in between FoKs or will the energy and GCD spent when picking up SnD again be overshadowed by a couple of extra FoKs?


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Old 01/18/10, 4:54 AM   #171
Mideci
Great Tiger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
30% more combat potency procs for keeping SnD up certainly feels like it's worth it. I find that when Anub submerges and there is no target to autoattack in the middle, the time between FoKs grows a lot (no combat potency). You really want to find the time to keep up SnD if you can.

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Old 01/31/10, 3:50 AM   #172
Unzipped
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Eonar
Its fairly easy now to skip the second burrow phase by easing up on aoe dps and focusing on single target on the second and fourth sets of adds. I have been staying as mutilate and only using 2-3 fan of knives with tricks on the add tank for the start of each add phase. It really helps the damage on anub, while still ensuring the add tank doesnt get any of the adds pulled off by other raid members. (keep in mind this only works if the rest of your raid has good aoe dps)

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Old 01/31/10, 4:20 AM   #173
Cyni01
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Burning Legion (EU)
It's also entirely possible to skip P2 alltogether now.
In recent weeks we've been needing to deliberately stop DPS at various stages during the fight in order to allow P2 add debuffs and / or penetrating cold to drop off people before pushing him onto P3, with Anub himself sitting anywhere between 35-45% HP as the 1st set of adds in the second P1 died.
For the lols the other week we decided to give it a bash at having no P2 whatsoever.
We blow everything bar Bloodlust and just went all out on Anub from the pull (inc 1 TotT on the MT from me)
Our add tank picks NW add up himself and our 3 hunters throw a quick MD on the other adds with 1 TotT + 2 FoK's from the other rogue as the adds hit melee range to make them stick.
Full on single target from the majority of the raid (only our 2 UH DK's, DPS warrior and 2 mages were concentrating on AOE) and we pushed him into P3 with about 3-5 secs on the submerge timer.
All in all it drastically shortened the fight and was a good laugh to boot.

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Old 01/31/10, 2:05 PM   #174
Sebastionleo
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twisting Nether
My guild started skipping the 2nd kite phase about a month ago and its made the fight much easier, we get him to 58-62% in the first phase, and push him over to p3 with about 5 sec left before he submerges.

That being said, I don't believe any guild can get him to 30% before he ever submerges on 25 man.

Also ever since ToC hard modes came out I've been told that he is immune to healing debuffs on 25 man heroic by many people. I don't think we've ever used an MS on the fight because of that. Can anybody post a WoL or something confirming one way or another?

Last edited by Sebastionleo : 01/31/10 at 2:16 PM. Reason: Adding to post

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Old 02/01/10, 4:53 PM   #175
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
Shaker's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Elune
Your hunters are probably keeping Aimed shot up, because he very much is not immune to the healing debuff, and it is in fact required at this gear level to have any reasonable chance at completing the fight.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

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