It seems there is enough evidence to suggest it can be vanish-immuned, just as Teron's Shadow of Death could be, as well as numerous other raid mechanics. I'm still a little dubious as to the merit of hanging onto your vanish for it. It's obviously handy, but a mutilate rogue can squeeze in two or possibly three vanishes for Overkill on a normal mode try. Trivial enough to warrant the rogues saving vanish 'in case' they are targeted? Possibly. Worth saving the discussion until we know how much fire they add to the heroic mode? Definintely.
What i'd be curious to know from anyone with more PTR experience is how many more Lady/Gunship style add fights we'll be seeing. I only saw one PTR boss and it was a purely single target zerg (Rotface, i think). I find those fights very painful as mutilate, even if i am very careful with envenom and HFB.
That does sound odd. Do you have links to those logs?
I guess they put the hotfix for Saurfang healing for 10x in last night after the first raid but before the second raid, might've explained the excess lag we were experiencing also.
(...)
1. First, and this is more of a general bug, you can currently have someone release from their bodies when they've gotten a Mark, and then battle-rez them with no Mark. (...)
It would seem that they're fixing it. Just last night (16th Dec) we were experiencing an odd behaviour. After a wipe the people who got the mark would still have it after releasing their body. Making it so that even combat ressed after release wouldnt remove the mark.
This wasn't tested, so a confirmation is needed, but it's pretty safe to assume they're fixing it, or it's already fixed.
I might be stating the obvious here, but you can pop a Potion of Speed a few seconds before the fight with Saurfang Jr starts for a nice boost to the initial burst. Since you will quaff the potion before you enter combat, it will be off cooldown by the time your shaman uses a heroism/bloodlust.
It would seem that they're fixing it. Just last night (16th Dec) we were experiencing an odd behaviour. After a wipe the people who got the mark would still have it after releasing their body. Making it so that even combat ressed after release wouldnt remove the mark.
This wasn't tested, so a confirmation is needed, but it's pretty safe to assume they're fixing it, or it's already fixed.
We had the same problem Tuesday night, the only way to get rid of the mark was have them leave the raid and rejoin.
Last edited by pinkshirtbadman : 12/19/09 at 8:21 PM.
I might be stating the obvious here, but you can pop a Potion of Speed a few seconds before the fight with Saurfang Jr starts for a nice boost to the initial burst. Since you will quaff the potion before you enter combat, it will be off cooldown by the time your shaman uses a heroism/bloodlust.
Combat starts a couple of seconds after he shoots the white-ish orbs at the NPCs, I use that as my cue to pop my first Indestructible Potion. Worthwhile to remember that to maximize the benefit you get from the potion.
Do they do that even after Marrowgar is dead, ie his thrash in general doesn't respawn anymore?
If I'm not seriously mistaken when we entered after our last wipe on Saurfang I saw the big guys running around between the entrance and where Marrowgar had been after I had disabled them >1h before.
If I'm not seriously mistaken when we entered after our last wipe on Saurfang I saw the big guys running around between the entrance and where Marrowgar had been after I had disabled them >1h before.
I can confirm that at least one of them does respawn - we missed one out when clearing, figuring to come back later and grab him for rep. When we did so after Saurfang, there was a second one running around too.
I experimented with some strategies,but yours (feist) seemed the best to let the beast do together a focussing dance on our hunter!I especially affirmed using crippling poison on my weapon!But In a way I had the feeling, that I didnt really hit them , due to percentage and sceptical about if its primary damage(I have hit cap and expertise of course). Well if aoe is the same damage as direct hit on the boss, the beasts should focus our hunter immeadetly, but he remained , not really being focussed at all, although I used fan of knives more then once.
I doubt first me, Feist, just to the fact you play longer and your brain contains more knowledge, but if there is a mistake on my side, of course I will erase it hlping my raid!
PS: as soon as I found out what it could be, I will let you know
It seems there is enough evidence to suggest it can be vanish-immuned, just as Teron's Shadow of Death could be, as well as numerous other raid mechanics. I'm still a little dubious as to the merit of hanging onto your vanish for it. It's obviously handy, but a mutilate rogue can squeeze in two or possibly three vanishes for Overkill on a normal mode try. Trivial enough to warrant the rogues saving vanish 'in case' they are targeted? Possibly. Worth saving the discussion until we know how much fire they add to the heroic mode? Definintely.
I can confirm the vanish trick works , I saved my party from a wipe yesterday as one healer was down ( only one alive ). It can be helpful in normal mode too.
I have some considerations about this vanish-immune situation. Firstly, Saurfang is a healer centric fight. It should not be the responsibility of the DPS classes to attempt to mitigate the damage of the mark. It should be your responsibility as a top DPS to utilize your cooldowns to maximize the damage done. Especially as a rogue on that fight, as you will be chiefly responsible for Damage done to the boss, and therefore the length of the encounter. Not using the overkill buff at an opportune moment (bloodlust, trinket procs) and instead using it in the .4 second window you have to make yourself immune to the spell is not only hard, but not the best use of your cold down.
Now, using feint on the other hand, particularly when Saurfang is below 25%, is a good use of energy and is helpful to your healers, as I'm pretty sure it negates some of the damage from the mark? Don't quote me on that, I'd need to test it again.
Your points are contradictory. Feint costs 20 energy; using it 3 times over the fight costs you as much damage as missing an entire vanish. If it's not worth saving one of your cooldowns to prevent *all* damage, it's certainly not worth using the same amount of energy to take *less* damage. In short: yes, you want to maximize DPS. Yes, you want to help the healers. The tricks if finding the right balance.
As Combat, there's little reason not to try vanish-immuning stuff - it's not like vanish is good for anything else. As Mutilate it's somewhat more debatable - it's going to come down to the specifics of your raid group, both in terms of DPS and healers, to figure out whether or not it's worth the damage loss. Similarly with feint. Ultimately: talk to your healers, figure out when and if they're strained, and figure out, for your guild, whether it is or isn't worth it to employ these tactics.
Your points are contradictory. Feint costs 20 energy; using it 3 times over the fight costs you as much damage as missing an entire vanish. If it's not worth saving one of your cooldowns to prevent *all* damage, it's certainly not worth using the same amount of energy to take *less* damage. In short: yes, you want to maximize DPS. Yes, you want to help the healers. The tricks if finding the right balance.
As Combat, there's little reason not to try vanish-immuning stuff - it's not like vanish is good for anything else. As Mutilate it's somewhat more debatable - it's going to come down to the specifics of your raid group, both in terms of DPS and healers, to figure out whether or not it's worth the damage loss. Similarly with feint. Ultimately: talk to your healers, figure out when and if they're strained, and figure out, for your guild, whether it is or isn't worth it to employ these tactics.
Out of curiosity what would be the breakpoint in terms of number of times in a fight Feint would be used to make [Glyph of Feint] a DPS gain? In a 'feint on CD' situation (say, Firefighter P2 and 4), it's 1 energy/second, which is about 200-250 EP, or somewhere around 4-5 times as good as an Evisc glyph for combat. At that sort of value, it's worth having if you're feinting somewhere around twice a minute, which in my experience, is pretty damned often on hardmode progression. Certainly it's in line with my usage back when i was learning Heroic Valks, or Algalon, or XT Hard, or Mim hard, or Vezax Hard, or Freya hard, etc. etc. etc.
Am I missing something, or have we just been overlooking this glyph?
There's a lot of fights where you use feint occasionally. There aren't that many where you actually make two a minute - or at least, that's been the case for me. XT Hard doesn't tantrum twice a minute, Vezax you might be feinting on cooldown during Animus but certainly not the rest of the fight, Freya only Ground Tremor's once every 45 seconds or so, and so on.
I'm not going to argue that it wouldn't be useful if you were actually feinting consistently throughout the entire fight... but I don't think that happens nearly as often as you might expect.
Plus, strictly speaking, as we move into T10 rogues probably want to start glyphing TotT for raid DPS purposes, at which point the bar for how much damage GoFeint would need to give is that much higher.
As Combat, there's little reason not to try vanish-immuning stuff - it's not like vanish is good for anything else. As Mutilate it's somewhat more debatable - it's going to come down to the specifics of your raid group, both in terms of DPS and healers, to figure out whether or not it's worth the damage loss. Similarly with feint. Ultimately: talk to your healers, figure out when and if they're strained, and figure out, for your guild, whether it is or isn't worth it to employ these tactics.
I'm currently specced Mutilate and I managed to Vanish immune a Mark again in ICC25 last night, and I don't think it's too far fetched to say that it might have won us the fight (well, as much as any one action can be responsible for a raid's victory in an encounter). We'd been having trouble every previous attempt with keeping ahead of the marks on healing (in part due to raid composition), and honestly, no amount of damage I could realistically hope to deal with one or two extra Overkills using Vanish aggressively was going to help our raid more than negating an entire Mark to take that pressure off our healers. I highly recommend if your healers are struggling at all, save your Vanish for the Mark of the Champion: just watch Saurfang's Blood Power and when it gets into the mid 90s, know that a Mark is coming and be ready to Vanish if he targets you. It's not that hard, honestly, and your healers will love you for it.
... and honestly, no amount of damage I could realistically hope to deal with one or two extra Overkills using Vanish aggressively was going to help our raid more than negating an entire Mark to take that pressure off our healers.
IMHO from raid perspective, skipping one Mark is the best rogue can do with his/her Vanish.
Hitting Marked people with this "cleave" also counts as special attack for Saurfang and he gains
blood power from those hits. As you will have more Marked people raid, Saurfang starts getting
power faster and faster, more Marks will follow faster ... Its sort of soft enrage timer there.
If you can skip one mark, especially the very first one, you effectively increase this soft enrage timer.
I will bet that for heroic modes this soft enrage timer becomes quite a problem.
The best option, really, is to have your whole raid not nub it up on Saurfang. For instance, I ran an ICC 10 on Sunday night and we killed him before he cast Mark even once. Kinda makes the whole Feint/Vanish/whatever argument a moot point. Don't get hit by the adds. Win.
I wouldn't call having to deal with marks "nubing it up". Seeing as the gear level in ICC 10 is 251, it is mainly going to be aimed at players in 245 gear or even sub-245, not people geared from 25 ToGC. While it is possible to delay marks being cast, insisting any good group should avoid them altogether is uselessly elitist.
I wouldn't call having to deal with marks "nubing it up". Seeing as the gear level in ICC 10 is 251, it is mainly going to be aimed at players in 245 gear or even sub-245, not people geared from 25 ToGC. While it is possible to delay marks being cast, insisting any good group should avoid them altogether is uselessly elitist.
It's really not that difficult. I pugged it tonight with a group of people that was, for the most part, in sub 245 gear and nobody above that but me, and his blood power never went over 60. A lot of it depends on your group composition, too -- Hunters, Boomkin, and Elem Shaman can really trivialize the Blood Beasts portion of the encounter. Insisting no marks are cast may be a bit much, but if you have enough snares on the Blood Beasts and good enough kiting, it's not unlikely that you won't see a mark cast.
The best option, really, is to have your whole raid not nub it up on Saurfang. For instance, I ran an ICC 10 on Sunday night and we killed him before he cast Mark even once. Kinda makes the whole Feint/Vanish/whatever argument a moot point. Don't get hit by the adds. Win.
That's why Blizzard invented hard modes. There will be a Deathbringer Saurfang hard mode, too.
I'm shocked that this has not been brought up yet. Why not weapon swap with wound poison. I have an offhand dagger with black magic enchant and wound poison that I use for this fight. Then my normal offhand has deadly. It's very easy to keep 5 stacks deadly and wound up full time with very little dps loss. Wound poison lasts 15s.
12/16/09, 7:03 PM
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