Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Rogues

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01/02/10, 6:24 AM   #1
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Java App Modelling Rogue DPS (Updated for 3.3.3)

iDPS is a Java based Model for both Assassination and Combat.

Why did i create this when there is excellent spreadsheets from Aldriana & Mavanas?

Advantages over spreadsheets:
- No need to install an Office Application
- Faster reaction to user input
- No need to keep track of different spreadsheets for combat/mutilate
- No need to reenter your gear every update
- Can handle multiple gear sets
- Works on 100% on OSX

Quick Usage Guide:
If you click on an inventory slot it will suggest items on the right hand side. The items are ordered by the dps you would do with that item equipped (Including best possible gemming). Same thing for Gems. Items/Gems are not ordered by EP weights, but by actually running dps calculations. Enchants can be changed by rightclicking in that inventory slot.


Project home:
idps - Project Hosting on Google Code

Donloads:
Downloads - idps - Project Hosting on Google Code

FAQ:
FAQ - idps - Project Hosting on Google Code

Please read the FAQ before asking any questions, since alot of questions that are already answered there are repeatedly asked here again.

Last edited by Chack : 03/23/10 at 9:18 PM.

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 9:59 AM   #2
Belegûr
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Kael'thas (EU)
An interesting application, quite easy to use too. However, I find a few things to be missing:
- no enchants; maybe I just missed the option, but I can't seem to find it anywhere;
- no RED, the only metagem offered is a "chaotic earthstorm diamond", which doesn't exist - I'm guessing this is more of a typo than anything else really;
- no option to add extra gear; I'm sure I'm not the only one to have had some tough luck with one specific item, that remains quite sub-par compared to the rest, and who needs to be able to add said item to the list (in my case, acidmaw treads and death-warmed belt);
- no option to control class buffs; I'm guessing you just factored them all in, but 10-man raiders don't often have them all, so being able to tick off certain buffs can offer more precise calculations.


I compared the final result to Vefnadi's mutilate 3.3 macro spreadhseet, and I obtained quite a discrepancy in the end. With no enchants used (so as to be closer to your application), the spreadsheet returns a total dps of 8975, while your app returns 9746. With all my enchants, the spreadsheet returns 9981 DPS, which is much closer to your app's results.


Still, I think it's quite an interesting idea, and I look forward to seeing it get better.

France Offline
Old 01/02/10, 12:20 PM   #3
HENNESSY
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Great job man, its so simple to use. I'm looking forward to your next versions. I also like how this one has horde item names

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 12:22 PM   #4
Drakulina
Glass Joe
 
Drakulina's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Гордунни (EU)
Well, good luck with your application.
But I think it would be much easier for you to fix rogue module in Rawr.
Rawr is an open source project - so you can download it's source code and make it work correct. By the way the latest version of Rawr working rather well, it's dps for my rogue is only 700dps lower than in simulator, but there are some strange things, like using bloodlust\heroism doesn't affect my damage at all о_О
Rawr developers are looking for people who want and can help
It's written on C# it's very close to Java, you will easily understand it.
There are lots of features in Rawr that are already implemented and working so you will save yourself a lots of time.

I tried to edit rogue module in Rawr, and well it's not hard, but the problem is that i don't actually know ALL formulas
for calculating rogue dps... and it takes too much time to find right formula.

Last edited by Drakulina : 01/02/10 at 12:28 PM.

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 1:39 PM   #5
LightGuard
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Galakrond
Is your source up somewhere like GitHub? I'd love to help out on this (pull from armory or something).

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 1:41 PM   #6
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
@Belegûr
- All enchants are automatically added, as there is no real choice anyway. I might add an option to change the "interesting" ones, eg. Mongoose and Haste on Cloak
- It is indeed a typo, thanks. It will be fixed in the next release
- You can in theory add your own items if you rename the file to *.zip, decompress it, then edit the items.xml file and add your own items. After just zip it again and rename the file to.jar. Will only work properly for items without proc tho. But I will add a couple of more lower level items in the next release
- Turning certain Buffs on/off is one of the next things i want to add

@Drakulina
Working on the rawr module is still a possibility, but I wanted somethign i could use on all my computers. Also i just felt like making something new. I have to fix other people's code often enough at work

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 1:48 PM   #7
Rahdik
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Earthen Ring
I might add an option to change the "interesting" ones, eg. Mongoose and Haste on Cloak
Haste to Cloak has become a lot more attractive now with the 3.3 changes that I'd argue it's the standard "default enchant" if you're an end-game raider. I would definitely suggest adding it in the near future.

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 3:13 PM   #8
Invencible
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Aegwynn
All enchants are automatically added, as there is no real choice anyway. I might add an option to change the "interesting" ones, eg. Mongoose and Haste on Cloak
First off, awesome idea, but you've got your work cut out for you. Also, some of us have profession only enchants which would need to be accounted for in a successful dps calculator.

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 4:53 PM   #9
Skydragon26
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Firetree
Just wanna say great work feels just like rawr =) I'd love to see items pulled from armory more choices that way, mac user haven't seen any problems or errors, would like to see options to turn buffs on and off and every implementation of a way to change enchants maybe along the same lines of the gems just another box under them, i like the simpleness of the app tho, keep up the good work, i love seeing it working on multiple platforms =)

Offline
Old 01/02/10, 5:19 PM   #10
robfang
Von Kaiser
 
robfang's Avatar
 
Orc Rogue
 
The Venture Co (EU)
First of all, great work there Chack.

Second, I was able to check the difference between combat and mutilate specs in the high end gear easily thanks to the tool. I have found that the gap between these two specs closes to the order of 800 dps.

The best combat gear relies on heavy arp gear and arp gemming whenever crit cap is not a concern. The combat dps with the bis gear was calculated as 13353 dps

The best mutilate gear relies on heavy haste gemming whenever crit cap is not a concern. The mutilate dps with the bis gear (and 51/13/7 spec, which is the best with 4pc Tier 10) was calculated as 14182 dps.

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 6:08 AM   #11
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
I added alot of fixes to the latest version
- All Professions added
- Fixed starting attributes for all races
- You can change enchants by right-clicking on an item
- Alot more (low level) items from ToC10 normal and the new heroics
- Fixed RED-Typo
- Improved socket coloring

iDPSv0.6-b7.jar

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 7:41 AM   #12
Tomate
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Cho'gall (EU)
Chest of ToC25 Normal & Heroic is missing.
It would be great to have an Alliance version or an improved version witch select correct item name witch depends of the selected Race.
Some others points which can be great:
- To know the stat of gem further more of the name especially for who usually use other language.
- To display the tooltip on items faster for the first one.
- To select an item when you click on the line not only on the radio button.
- To display information on capping stats.
So it will be helpful.

France Offline
Old 01/04/10, 12:18 PM   #13
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
I added a new version with the missing chest & alliance items. Race selector is basically the switch betwen Horde/Alliance. If I missed any other items feel free to send me a pm.

@Tomate
I am not sure what you mean with faster tooltips. If you want them to pop up faster when you mouser-over an item, I'm afraid I can't change that.

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 1:41 PM   #14
trunicated
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Dark Iron
Might I suggest an import option as far as the XML files goes? Perhaps even an option in the program to add a single piece of gear. Also, it wasn't until I was digging around through your JAR file that I found you had a "enchants.xml" file. I found it somewhat odd that you needed to right click a socket to enchant it. Perhaps you can treat the enchants (with the exception of the weapons) as just a special type of gem, and just have a "socket" next to each enchantable piece of gear. This might be a little more intuitive, and if you've programmed the program to recognize the difference between "meta", and the other colors, it should not be terrible to implement.

Anyways, I like the app, and would love to see the code. I can't wait to see how this ends up after a few months of tweaking, especially if it saves me from having to lock down a computer for 24 hours to run EP values!

Edit: Also, it would be great to get an "Alchemy" selection under professions. I believe it's a +64 AP increase over the regular flask.

Last edited by trunicated : 01/04/10 at 2:21 PM.

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 2:33 PM   #15
Milou
Piston Honda
 
Milou's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Destromath
Alchemy gives you a bonus 80AP (as well as the 2 hours duration).

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 3:34 PM   #16
Ottosen
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Frostwhisper (EU)
Well made program, really liking it so far. Haven't tried the latest version yet, but the previous version didn't quite match up to my in-game stats, even though I considered the lack of professions etc. I'll double check.

Also, when I'm using it, I can't get tooltips over items at all. Any idea? *It started working after I updated my java version..not sure that's what made it work, but yeah.

Now the real question is, which is the better guideline now - rawr, Aldriana's sheets or this Can't wait to hear the debate on this later on.

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 4:17 PM   #17
trunicated
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Ottosen View Post
Well made program, really liking it so far. Haven't tried the latest version yet, but the previous version didn't quite match up to my in-game stats, even though I considered the lack of professions etc. I'll double check.

Also, when I'm using it, I can't get tooltips over items at all. Any idea? *It started working after I updated my java version..not sure that's what made it work, but yeah.

Now the real question is, which is the better guideline now - rawr, Aldriana's sheets or this Can't wait to hear the debate on this later on.
Realize that this is just a model. It's mathematical equations that are being used to determine the EP numbers and DPS (which is why I'm so curious about the source, so I can comb through it a little.) As such, it's going to be a great way to get a quick idea about what you should be able to pull, what gear might be a good upgrade, and a rough estimate of what your EP values are going to look like.

However, it will never be as accurate as a spreadsheet that runs actual simulations with random numbers. Especially if you're trying your hardest to minmax on every stat. I just know that Aldriana's sheet, with it's in-depth rotation setup, specific talent setup, and buff control (not to mention tons of time behind it) will be better for those that need to squeeze every last point of damage out of their character. However, not all of us like running spreadsheets for hours on end for a few gem slots or one piece of gear. :-)

I expect to see this catch on as a good way to get a good idea of what you want, and Aldriana's to be the absolute solution.

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 5:59 PM   #18
robfang
Von Kaiser
 
robfang's Avatar
 
Orc Rogue
 
The Venture Co (EU)
To be exact, Aldriana's spreadsheet does not do simulations. If modelled correctly, this program will be the same as Aldriana's spreadsheet with better user interface perhaps.

You should be referring to Mavanas's simulation spreadsheet if you want some combat simulation.

By the way, Chack, the 2nd version of the tool calculates lower dps values than the first version. Also, I failed to see any effect of the professions like engineering or leatherworking.

Last edited by robfang : 01/04/10 at 6:16 PM.

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 8:00 PM   #19
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Aldriana's spreadsheet is indeed modelling as well. Generally modelling has the advantage that it's faster and easier to see if an item is "better". Simulation will give you more realistic dps end results, but it will take alot of data to figure out if 10 haste is better then 10 agi. Also there is no guarantee that the simulated results will actually tell you the truth.

@robfang
- The first version's starting attributes were 10 ap too high. In addition in the current version there is a bug where 10 stats on chest only gives 10 agi, so you will probably have 20 ap less then compared to v0.5.
- To make use of professions like engineering and leatherworking, you also need to equip those enchants

Offline
Old 01/04/10, 8:08 PM   #20
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Realistically, something like this would be a direct replacement for my spreadsheet if done well. As would Rawr. Some of you may recall I've experimented with such things in the past - I simply haven't had time to reach any reasonable level of sophistication with it, and I have to commend Chack for the work he's done so far. On the other hand, I feel like there's a fair number of features missing so far, and the fact that there seem to be some EP discrepancies makes me suspicious of the underlying model - I can't 100% swear that I'm wrong and this tool is wrong, but given the relative age - and thus the amount of use - of the tools in question, I'm inclined to guess that the more established tools are more likely to be correct when there's agreement - at least until I see evidence or an explanation as to why the new tool has "better" modeling that is causing the difference.

So yeah. Looks cool. Hopefully you can do some good things with it and it will become a valuable part of the rogue's theorycrafting arsenal. I'm just not sure it's quite there yet.

Offline
Old 01/05/10, 6:41 AM   #21
Shoujahitsumetsu
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by trunicated View Post
Realize that this is just a model. It's mathematical equations that are being used to determine the EP numbers and DPS (which is why I'm so curious about the source, so I can comb through it a little.) As such, it's going to be a great way to get a quick idea about what you should be able to pull, what gear might be a good upgrade, and a rough estimate of what your EP values are going to look like.
The source code is available in the release itself. You can use an archiver like winrar to break down the .jar file into various .class files. Those class files have all of the source code, however they're arranged into bytecode making them much harder to read. Just use a java decompiler, plenty of freeware ones on google, and you can convert the .class files into their original .java files. From there, reading them is quite simple; just use a text editor like textpad, notepad, etc.

Offline
Old 01/05/10, 7:22 AM   #22
Tomate
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Cho'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Chack View Post
I am not sure what you mean with faster tooltips. If you want them to pop up faster when you mouser-over an item, I'm afraid I can't change that.
Yes, it was what I mean.
Concerning the other points in my first post can them be done?

I have noticed that stats of the baelgun heavy crossbow which drop in the chest after anubarak in 10 player are wrong.
It should be the same as the horde version.

France Offline
Old 01/05/10, 8:53 AM   #23
Guradia
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
*raisesHand* as someone extremly interessted in contributing.
I'm in no way professional with Java, but at least a professional programmer ^^
Would love to see you providing the sources.

Rawr ist a fine and versatile program, but it lacks cross-platform capabilities (eauqal to VBA extensive speadsheets).

Offline
Old 01/05/10, 9:56 AM   #24
Chack
Piston Honda
 
Troll Rogue
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Originally I did not plan to release the source, but I will give it another thought.

@Aldriana
When I have more time I can compare your formulas with mine and compile the differences between the underlying models. This is going to be a very time consuming process tho. One thing I noticed at least, is that the EP for hit and exp stay above 0 even when going past the caps. Maybe we have just different methods of calculating the EP values.

@Tomate
They can certainly be done, but not all of them are top priority at this time. I just added colored highlighting for hit/crit/arp caps tho.

I put up a new Version with a couple of fixes and missing items.

iDPSv0.7-b12.jar

Offline
Old 01/05/10, 10:29 AM   #25
redpilul
Glass Joe
 
redpilul's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Conseil des Ombres (EU)
Thanks for this very useful app.
It is true that it may not be as precise as the spreadsheet atm. But I do think that it has the potential to replace it in the future.
My java skills are far from those of a pro so I won't offer you my help with that part, but the idea of releasing the source code could be interesting for me to translate it (in french for example since it is my first language).
Keep up the good work

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Rogues

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rogue - Dodge vs. Parry Talents, One Roll Combat Theory, Combat Sword Spec Questions tok3n Class Mechanics 30 04/12/07 1:15 PM