The Blue Post Thread - Page 2

Crevan · 06/11/10, 8:01 AM

A thread discussing the usefulness (or rather the lack of it) of Riposte. The interesting bit underlined:

...
The problem with both Lightwell and Riposte in LK has to do with the pace of combat. A small self-heal isn't useful in an environment where the healers either keep you up easily or you die to spike damage regardless of the decisions you make. An attack speed debuff isn't super useful in a PvP environment where players die so quickly. But with the larger health pools in Cataclysm, both of those talents become more useful. Saving priest mana and GCDs by using Lightwell could help turn a failure into a victory. Slowing down incoming damage can help a rogue go toe-to-toe with another melee class.

Counterattack is probably going away. We haven't released new hunter trees yet. Shiv is changing a little bit to be more of an enrage dispel.

Tinwhisker · 06/11/10, 8:45 AM

My assumption would be that it dawned on Blizzard that having a third (or fourth) weapon with Anesthetic and relying on a weapon swap macro to dispel enrages was clunky as hell. What will probably happen is that Anesthetic is going away and the enrage dispel mechanic it provided will be added to Shiv.

Zaniel · 06/11/10, 4:08 PM

My question then is that will this new functionality replace Shiv's old one (the guaranteed poison proc)? If so, this is a pretty hefty change. With the change to dispel mechanics at the same time, though, changing Shiv might not make as big a deal.

Tinwhisker · 06/11/10, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Zaniel

My question then is that will this new functionality replace Shiv's old one (the guaranteed poison proc)? If so, this is a pretty hefty change. With the change to dispel mechanics at the same time, though, changing Shiv might not make as big a deal.

It could probably go either way. In PvE having a sure-fire poison proc (which cannot crit) and an enrage dispel coming from a single attack (which also cannot crit) is no big deal because it's trading the DPS of a normal attack for utility and potentially much less damage.

In PvP that might be a problem if only because similar spells like Tranq Shot do not do any damage. But Blizzard has often said that different classes are different and that spells/abilities do not have to be perfectly equal for them to be balanced. As it stands now, only melee classes have an enrage so a dispel from melee range is a greater risk than one from 30+ yards anyway.

That being the case, I could see a very short cooldown put on shiv especially if poison dispels are no longer fire and forget.

Halbarad · 06/12/10, 1:56 AM

From this post.

Anesthetic Poison might very well go away and Shiv just become the anesthetic equivalent. Little too early to tell on that one.

Malice is the kind of thing we'd like to replace, but we'd rather the trees work than just rip out every passive stat talent just because, so we'll only replace it if we come with something we're really excited about. Precision is fine -- being able to remove some hit dependency is useful to every dps spec and the kind of thing you could consider talenting out of if your gear put you over the cap.

Docrev · 06/27/10, 3:54 PM

From Ghostcrawler's second post here: MMO-Champion BlueTracker | Strength 1-handed weapons in 4.0

That's something we have discussed (only fast daggers), but the valuation of weapon speed is heavily tied into combat mechanics and those might still change. For example, we've been considering that nasty ICD on Windfury weapon again....

Sarvius · 06/28/10, 4:01 PM

For clarity, that discussion was not saying that daggers would only be fast (as the wording suggests) but that the only fast weapons would be daggers - if implemented.

Rambaral · 07/07/10, 1:23 PM

Some pretty big news in the world of talents, especially for new players.

When we first announced our design goals for class talent trees back at BlizzCon 2009, one of our major stated focuses was to remove some of the boring and "mandatory" passive talents. We mentioned that we wanted talent choices to feel more flavorful and fun, yet more meaningful at the same time. Recently, we had our fansites release information on work-in-progress talent tree previews for druids, priests, shaman, and rogues. From those previews and via alpha test feedback, a primary response we heard was that these trees didn’t incorporate the original design goals discussed at BlizzCon. This response echoes something we have been feeling internally for some time, namely that the talent tree system has not aged well since we first increased the level cap beyond level 60. In an upcoming beta build, we will unveil bold overhauls of all 30 talent trees.

Talent Tree Vision

One of the basic tenets of Blizzard game design is that of “concentrated coolness.” We’d rather have a simpler design with a lot of depth, than a complicated but shallow design. The goal for Cataclysm remains to remove a lot of the passive (or lame) talents, but we don’t think that’s possible with the current tree size. To resolve this, we're reducing each tree to 31-point talents. With this reduction in tree size we need to make sure they're being purchased along a similar leveling curve, and therefore will also be reducing the number of total talent points and the speed at which they're awarded during the leveling process.

As a result, we can keep the unique talents in each tree, particularly those which provide new spells, abilities or mechanics. We’ll still have room for extra flavorful talents and room for player customization, but we can trim a great deal of fat from each tree. The idea isn’t to give players fewer choices, but to make those choices feel more meaningful. Your rotations won’t change and you won’t lose any cool talents. What will change are all of the filler talents you had to pick up to get to the next fun talent, as well as most talents that required 5 of your hard-earned points.

We are also taking a hard look at many of the mandatory PvP talents, such as spell pushback or mechanic duration reductions. While there will always be PvP vs. PvE builds, we’d like for the difference to be less extreme, so that players don’t feel like they necessarily need to spend their second talent specialization on a PvP build.

The Rise of Specialization

We want to focus the talent trees towards your chosen style of gameplay right away. That first point you spend in a tree should be very meaningful. If you choose Enhancement, we want you to feel like an Enhancement shaman right away, not thirty talent points later. When talent trees are unlocked at level 10, you will be asked to choose your specialization (e.g. whether you want to be an Arms, Fury or Protection warrior) before spending that first point. Making this choice comes with certain benefits, including whatever passive bonuses you need to be effective in that role, and a signature ability that used to be buried deeper in the talent trees. These abilities and bonuses are only available by specializing in a specific tree. Each tree awards its own unique active ability and passives when chosen. The passive bonuses range from flat percentage increases, like a 20% increase to Fire damage for Fire mages or spell range increases for casters, to more interesting passives such as the passive rage regeneration of the former Anger Management talent for Arms warriors, Dual-Wield Specialization for Fury warriors and Combat rogues, or the ability to dual-wield itself for Enhancement shaman.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.

Getting Down to the Grit

Talent trees will have around 20 unique talents instead of today's (roughly) 30 talents, and aesthetically will look a bit more like the original World of Warcraft talent trees. The 31-point talents will generally be the same as the 51-point talents we already had planned for Cataclysm. A lot of the boring or extremely specialized talents have been removed, but we don't want to remove anything that’s going to affect spell/ability rotations. We want to keep overall damage, healing, and survivability roughly the same while providing a lot of the passive bonuses for free based on your specialization choice.

While leveling, you will get 1 talent point about every 2 levels (41 points total at level 85). Our goal is to alternate between gaining a new class spell or ability and gaining a talent point with each level. As another significant change, you will not be able to put points into a different talent tree until you have dedicated 31 talent points to your primary specialization. While leveling, this will be possible at 70. Picking a talent specialization should feel important. To that end, we want to make sure new players understand the significance of reaching the bottom of their specialization tree before gaining the option of spending points in the other trees. We intend to make sure dual-specialization and re-talenting function exactly as they do today so players do not feel locked into their specialization choice.

A True Mastery

The original passive Mastery bonuses players were to receive according to how they spent points in each tree are being replaced by the automatic passive bonuses earned when a tree specialization is chosen. These passives are flat percentages and we no longer intend for them to scale with the number of talent points spent. The Mastery bonus that was unique to each tree will now be derived from the Mastery stat, found on high-level items, and Mastery will be a passive skill learned from class trainers around level 75. In most cases, the Mastery stats will be the same as the tree-unique bonuses we announced earlier this year. These stats can be improved by stacking Mastery Rating found on high-level items.

To Recap

When players reach level 10, they are presented with basic information on the three specializations within their class and are asked to choose one. Then they spend their talent point. The other trees darken and are unavailable until 31 points are spent in the chosen tree. The character is awarded an active ability, and one or more passive bonuses unique to the tree they've chosen. As they gain levels, they'll alternate between receiving a talent point and gaining new skills. They'll have a 31-point tree to work down, with each talent being more integral and exciting than they have been in the past. Once they spend their 31'st point in the final talent (at level 70), the other trees open up and become available to allocate points into from then on. As characters move into the level 78+ areas in Cataclysm, they'll begin seeing items with a new stat, Mastery. Once they learn the Mastery skill from their class trainer they'll receive bonuses from the stat based on the tree they've specialized in.

We understand that these are significant changes and we still have details to solidify. We feel, however, that these changes better fulfill our original class design goals for Cataclysm, and we're confident that they will make for a better gameplay experience. Your constructive feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

Source: mmo-champion

Crevan · 07/07/10, 2:11 PM

While we won't know anything for sure until we see the actual redesigned trees, one thing that comes to mind straight away is that, most probably, assassination rogues won't be able to pick up Blade Flurry as we thought they would. The reason I think this will be the case is this post by GC, specifically:

You typically won't get active abilities from a second tree. The most you can get in a second tree is 10 points, and usually the active abilities are deeper than this.

Obviously, this will affect any builds that aimed to pick up active abilities from two or more trees, like muti/prep for pvp.

Zaniel · 07/07/10, 2:45 PM

To specifically address that concern, GC had this to say:

It's a design flaw that rogues and locks are so dependent on Prep and Soul Link respectively. Those talents are currently holding the classes back. Now we can't balance around the assumption that you have those talents so your classes need to function without them. Maybe it means lowering base cooldowns....

The source is the same thread.

Sculduggery · 07/07/10, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

Obviously, this will affect any builds that aimed to pick up active abilities from two or more trees, like muti/prep for pvp.

Actually, Mutilate was said to be an ability unlocked by the initial tree purchase.

The initial talent tree selection unlocks active abilities that are core to the chosen role. Our goal is to choose abilities that let the specializations come into their own much earlier than was possible when a specialization-defining talent had to be buried deep enough that other talent trees couldn’t access them. For example, having Lava Lash and Dual-Wield right away lets an Enhancement shaman feel like an Enhancement shaman. Other role-defining examples of abilities players can now get for free at level 10 include Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, Shield Slam, Mutilate, Shadow Step, Thunderstorm, Earth Shield, Water Elemental, and Penance.

31 points into Sub, 1 point into Assassination should get the basics for Muti/Prep with 9 points to spare.

Zaniel · 07/07/10, 5:01 PM

Except that you won't get Mutilate unless you choose to spec Assassination. Thus Mut/Prep is dead, dead, dead.

Inaccessible. Shadowstep is essentially no longer a talent. There is nowhere to buy it. You don't get any passive bonuses for picking your second tree. Essentially you choose at level 10 whether to be an Assassination, Combat or Subtlety rogue, and while you can change your mind later, that determines what special ability and what passives you get.

Source

And we should stop linking to that thread now. Anyone can read the same things we can, so they should do so please.

Crevan · 07/08/10, 6:27 AM

We don't know the Combat special ability just yet, but I'd speculate it's going to be either Blade Flurry or Adrenaline Rush. Killing Spree is simply too powerful and is likely to remain at the bottom of the tree.

Rosvall · 07/08/10, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Crevan

We don't know the Combat special ability just yet, but I'd speculate it's going to be either Blade Flurry or Adrenaline Rush. Killing Spree is simply too powerful and is likely to remain at the bottom of the tree.

A good move would be to make AR their starter skill so new rogues can early learn to play with the amount of energy gain, or close to it, that they will have passively at level 85.

Jibini · 07/29/10, 11:11 AM

First half of this is in the Cata changes thread, but the bolded part of the second paragraph is relevant to their plans for us. Source.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We are changing Improved Eviscerate to also affect Envenom, to give Assassination another attractive first tier talent for the endgame player.

Endgame rogues will not be balanced around 100% uptime for Recuperate. We do think rogues will use it however. If mana matters a little more, then keeping yourself alive a little more will matter. We're not fans of the (sadly widespread) belief that keeping the group alive is solely the responsibility of the healers and that dps should do everything in their power solely to maximize their dps, even if that makes things harder on the healers.