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Old 03/19/10, 6:29 AM   #1
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Rawr.Rogue

I have been developing Rawr.Rogue since release 2.3.9 and did a complete rewrite of the old module. The new version is based on Rawr.Cat.
I do not play a Rogue as my main (Cat is my mainspec), I didn't even have a level 80 Rogue when I started working on it, but this should not be a problem for the development.

Where to find it:
Rawr2, standalone version: Rawr
Rawr3, browser version, also for Mac: http://elitistjerks.com/rawr.php

General info:
The module assumes a tank and spank boss without movement, this means that talents like Fleet Footed do not add to your damage output where they will do so in a lot of real fights.

Settings:
Changing the rotation settings on the settings tab only changes the custom rotation DPS displayed on the main tab. The number displayed at the bottom is the optimal DPS, which won't change by changing these settings.

Known bugs:
Deathbringer weapon procs are valued too high.

Assassination:
Status: Fully functional

Combat:
Status: Fully functional

Sublety:
Status: Only implemented as far as was needed to support Assassination and Combat specs.

If you have any problems with or questions about Rawr.Rogue please post them here or create a Discussion or Issue on Rawr.
Make sure you include the char name, realm and region of your Rogue.

Last edited by Fesura : 07/05/10 at 5:53 AM.

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Old 03/19/10, 7:51 AM   #2
Shinja
Glass Joe
 
Shinja's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Ysondre (EU)
There're some improvements to make in the rogue module, but one of the most annoying part of Rawr is the gemming template editor (and apply to all classes). But it's a good news to see that some people want to improve Rawr which can be a very useful tools for us.

"Killing is my business."

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Old 03/19/10, 4:24 PM   #3
Aslice
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Kilrogg
I do find RAWR useful in creating gear lists ( have used on my Pally a bit ) - but one major open to me is the weapon ranking.
I bring up my rogue from Armory ( combat ) - look at Mainhand and see some suggestions of what most consider
OH weapons as upgrades to Bloodvenom Blade ( my present MH ).

For example - Scourgebourne Waraxe ( which is my present OH ) shows up as "better" for a MH.

Now I have not done all the math here - but I believe general consensus is a slow MH / fast OH is the way to go.
Anomaly ? Either way - it makes me wanna go "hmmm" ...

( Note - as my weapons have improved the # of what I consider to be odd suggestions have diminished )

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Old 03/19/10, 4:34 PM   #4
thebigmunch
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Garithos
Originally Posted by Aslice View Post
I do find RAWR useful in creating gear lists ( have used on my Pally a bit ) - but one major open to me is the weapon ranking.
I bring up my rogue from Armory ( combat ) - look at Mainhand and see some suggestions of what most consider
OH weapons as upgrades to Bloodvenom Blade ( my present MH ).

For example - Scourgebourne Waraxe ( which is my present OH ) shows up as "better" for a MH.

Now I have not done all the math here - but I believe general consensus is a slow MH / fast OH is the way to go.
Anomaly ? Either way - it makes me wanna go "hmmm" ...

( Note - as my weapons have improved the # of what I consider to be odd suggestions have diminished )
If you looked at his list of bugs that are fixed in the next release of Rawr,. They mostly have to do with poisons and their procs, which will greatly affect the speed of weapons suggested. You may notice the grossly inflated dps due to this in version 2.3.12, as well. Wait for 2.3.13 where those bugs are already fixed or go back to 2.3.11.

Last edited by thebigmunch : 03/19/10 at 4:56 PM.

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Old 03/20/10, 8:19 AM   #5
Mahtasooma
Glass Joe
 
Troll Priest
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
The item upgrade suggestions seem to differ from what the spreadsheet suggests by very large margins.

Any feedback? Rawr suggests that Needle Encrusted Scorpionn would be an upgrade to Herkuml Token with my gear and spec (combat)... or that Bloodfang Hood would be better than the Discarded Bag of Entrails.

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Old 03/20/10, 5:04 PM   #6
Neshalin
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Mage
 
The Sha'tar (EU)
Until the currently known issues are fixed in the next Rawr version, you probably should take any suggestions with a large grain of salt. I've reported several issues that Fesura has fixed already (poisons) and some he probably still has to investigate. If you compare Rawr's damage breakdown with an actual combat log, you might notice that white attacks are a lot weaker in Rawr. Looking at the code this seems to be an issue with weapon damage calculation being based on hasted attack speed rather than raw speed. Among other things, this means it will value haste very low. That would explain Herkuml War Token rating like you see.

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Old 03/22/10, 3:28 PM   #7
Trocanter
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Ghostlands
I don't think Tiny Abomination in a Jar is modeled correctly for mutilate rogues in the current version of Rawr.

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Old 03/22/10, 3:43 PM   #8
Feist-Mok
Bald Bull
 
Feist-Mok's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Is the model used in the new Rawr Beta that's up the most recent build Fesura? I'd be happy to play around with your work, but being on a Mac, I can't try with 2.x

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Old 03/22/10, 4:17 PM   #9
Faergun
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Anachronos (EU)
Rogue calcs

I'm a huge fan of Rawr - use it for all my other toons, and would love to see this module come up to speed as well. If we can help at all Fesura, let me know. I just installed 2.3.13. I tend to use Aldriana's spreadsheet, which seems to most closely match my performance in raids.

I play Mutilate spec (51/18/2), and although I think we're homing in on the damage simulation now, I noticed that the settings around cycles (combo point generator, number of points) don't seem to affect the dps? Am I missing something?

The relative stat values also differ from the spreadsheet ones, which kind of makes gear comparison interesting
Agility and Crit are within a few %, but haste seems much less valuable according to rawr. S/Sheet has it at 1.48, rawr has it at 1.0. Similarly, Ikfirus Sack of Wonder and Shadow Seekers Tunic are barely upgrades from t9 in rawr, but in s/sheet are 200+dps each...

What information is most useful to you to help refining the module?

F.

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Old 03/22/10, 4:30 PM   #10
Neshalin
Piston Honda
 
Worgen Mage
 
The Sha'tar (EU)
The number on the bottom is your dps using the optimal rotation. You can only see your custom rotation dps on the stats tab. That's probably why you don't notice any difference playing around with cycles.

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Old 03/22/10, 9:27 PM   #11
Jindayu
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Is there any Issue with crit in Rawr. The EP Values for crit and Agility are extremely high. If Rawr is right, i should Gem for Agility instead of AP.
My Gears is 2P T10 (shoulder, gloves), average ilvl of 261 and i am playing mutilate (only offhand dagger and wrist are with arp, any other item is without arp).
Here is the EP Values Rawr output:

Agility 2,28
Crit 1,81
Haste 1,7
ArP 1,05
Str 1,04
AP 0,96
Hit 0,49

My current stats (raidbuffed, full support, with Heroic Presence) in Rawr are:

AP 8506
Agi 2176
Str 392
Critrating 781
Hitrating 603
Expertise Rating 222
Haste 525
ArP 104

Critchance 68,55778

Trinkets: Herkuml, Deaths Verdict (245) and i use mongoose on my Daggers (Rib Sprader (264), Flesh Carving Scalpel (251))

I wonder about how low the value for hit is and how amazingly high crit and (maybe because of that) Agility is rated.
I for myself thought that Haste > Hit > AP > Agi >>> Crit or something like that when i read about rogue mechanics and took a look at some spreadsheets....

It would help me a lot, if someone could explain these EP Values to me or could tell me if this is because of a/some bugs in Rawr.

Edit: I use Rawr v3. Rawr 2.3.13 shows not exactly the same but almost and puzzles me with the same strange crit/agi/hit thing i described.

Last edited by Jindayu : 03/22/10 at 9:35 PM.

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Old 03/23/10, 5:34 AM   #12
jaxdahl
King Hippo
 
jaxdahl's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
'Spell Critical Strike Taken' debuffs such as Winter's Chill/Improved Scorch/Improved Shadow Bolt do not appear to be accounted for in v2.3.13. Aldriana's spreadsheet takes these into account.

edit: The Icecrown Citadel zone buffs seem to be increasing DPS by about half what I would expect. (2.5% for the 5% damage buff)

Last edited by jaxdahl : 03/23/10 at 5:45 AM.

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Old 03/23/10, 6:37 AM   #13
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Originally Posted by Trocanter View Post
I don't think Tiny Abomination in a Jar is modeled correctly for mutilate rogues in the current version of Rawr.
Correct, I added it to the known bugs.

Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
Is the model used in the new Rawr Beta that's up the most recent build Fesura? I'd be happy to play around with your work, but being on a Mac, I can't try with 2.x
Rawr3 uses the same version as Rawr2 at the moment, which is .3.13.
So any results from using either are welcome.

Originally Posted by Faergun View Post
The relative stat values also differ from the spreadsheet ones, which kind of makes gear comparison interesting
Agility and Crit are within a few %, but haste seems much less valuable according to rawr. S/Sheet has it at 1.48, rawr has it at 1.0. Similarly, Ikfirus Sack of Wonder and Shadow Seekers Tunic are barely upgrades from t9 in rawr, but in s/sheet are 200+dps each...
Haste will be more valuable in .14 as it lowers the damage from your white attacks at the moment. This should get the stat values more to what you'd expect them to be.

Originally Posted by Jindayu View Post
Is there any Issue with crit in Rawr. The EP Values for crit and Agility are extremely high. If Rawr is right, i should Gem for Agility instead of AP.
Please let me know your char name so I can check it in the dev version.

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Old 03/23/10, 7:25 AM   #14
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Originally Posted by jaxdahl View Post
'Spell Critical Strike Taken' debuffs such as Winter's Chill/Improved Scorch/Improved Shadow Bolt do not appear to be accounted for in v2.3.13. Aldriana's spreadsheet takes these into account.

edit: The Icecrown Citadel zone buffs seem to be increasing DPS by about half what I would expect. (2.5% for the 5% damage buff)
You are right about both and both will be fixed in the next release. The reason the ICC buff didn't work as intended was that Poisons didn't benefit from it.

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Old 03/23/10, 8:02 AM   #15
Jindayu
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Originally Posted by Fesura View Post
Correct, I added it to the known bugs.



Rawr3 uses the same version as Rawr2 at the moment, which is .3.13.
So any results from using either are welcome.



Haste will be more valuable in .14 as it lowers the damage from your white attacks at the moment. This should get the stat values more to what you'd expect them to be.



Please let me know your char name so I can check it in the dev version.
Charname: Kido
Server: Die Silberne Hand (german server)

Edit: wrote my mages name instead of my rogues -.-

Last edited by Jindayu : 03/23/10 at 8:57 AM.

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Old 03/23/10, 4:16 PM   #16
 MrBill
n00b
 
Orc Rogue
 
Azjol-Nerub
Originally Posted by Aslice View Post

For example - Scourgebourne Waraxe ( which is my present OH ) shows up as "better" for a MH.

Now I have not done all the math here - but I believe general consensus is a slow MH / fast OH is the way to go.
Anomaly ? Either way - it makes me wanna go "hmmm" ...
I have been very lucky with drops in some places and not so lucky with drops in others. I picked up the Scourgebourne waraxe much earlier than I should have, so it is competing with a vault full of 232 weapons. After 30,000 or so itterations with the 3.3 spreadsheet (combat) it confirms that my highest DPS output with the weapons I have to choose from is Scourgebourne MH with DP Orcish Deathblade OH with IP. I am breaking three general rules here:
1) slow MH
2) IP MH, DP OH
3) no daggers if you are combat spec

The point is that modeling tools help you determine what your best DPS output is going to be given the options of gear you have, and that any "General rules" may not apply to your specific situation. I would never have thought to run Scourgebourne waraxe MH because of the "general rule" until Rawr suggested it. That sent me on a 3 day spreadsheet rampage that finally showed Rawr was right to suggest that weapon, but disagreed with the spreadsheet on which gems I should run. I find both tools usefull. I trust the spreadsheet more because it comes much closer to the actual DPS I see in game.

Last edited by MrBill : 03/23/10 at 4:42 PM.

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Old 03/24/10, 5:20 AM   #17
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Originally Posted by Jindayu View Post
Charname: Kido
Server: Die Silberne Hand (german server)

Edit: wrote my mages name instead of my rogues -.-
I checked it in the dev version and when I run an optimize it suggests AP gems, so your issue will be fixed in .14.

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Old 03/30/10, 2:23 PM   #18
Crystar
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Cairne
It is putting [Raging Deathbringer] at 600 dps over the heroic version of [Bloodvenom Blade] for me, making it a BiS
(happened in both .12 and .13) which does not seem very likely.
I wonder if there is anything going on with the weapon speed or the proc that is messing things up?

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Old 03/31/10, 3:46 AM   #19
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Originally Posted by Crystar View Post
It is putting [Raging Deathbringer] at 600 dps over the heroic version of [Bloodvenom Blade] for me, making it a BiS
(happened in both .12 and .13) which does not seem very likely.
I wonder if there is anything going on with the weapon speed or the proc that is messing things up?
Please include your char name, realm and region. I can't guess which Rogue you are talking about.

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Old 03/31/10, 10:45 AM   #20
Mikhael
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
You can observe this valuation on my rogue as well - Mikhael of Doomhammer-US

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Old 04/01/10, 3:18 AM   #21
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
You can observe this valuation on my rogue as well - Mikhael of Doomhammer-US
Weapons with procs like the one on Raging Deathbringer have the damage of the proc added as DPS instead of a proc.
I have removed this in .14 but have not modeled the proc itself yet.

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Old 04/13/10, 4:39 AM   #22
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Version .14 has been released, fixes in this release:

Agi increases Poison crit chance (fixed in .14)
Lightning Reflexes gives 4/8/12% Haste (fixed in .14)
White attacks use hasted weapon speed (fixed in .14)
Mangle debuff is assumed to be up (fixed in .14)
Glyph of Rupture is assumed and is double dipping when used (fixed in .14)
Rupture damage display if wrong (fixed in .14)
Spell crit debuffs don't have effect (fixed in .14)
Damage multipliers don't work on Poisons (fixed in .14)
Relentless Strikes doesn't give enough energy (fixed in .14)
Ruthlessness calculation is incorrect (fixed in .14)
Raging Deathbringer like procs have their damage added as DPS instead of a proc (partially fixed in .14, the proc will be gone)
Spell hit chance uses melee conversion (fixed in .14)

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Old 04/14/10, 6:22 AM   #23
Fesura
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg (EU)
Originally Posted by Fesura View Post
Raging Deathbringer like procs are not modeled.
My mistake, those procs are modeled correctly at the moment, they were added multiple times before, but that's fixed.

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Old 04/15/10, 9:21 PM   #24
noremac13
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
I have the 2.3.14 version of Rawr, and it still shows the Raging Deathbringer and Empowered Deathbringer as being better than all other weapons.

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Old 04/19/10, 1:13 AM   #25
Sargeth
Glass Joe
 
Human Priest
 
Perenolde
A couple things I'd appreciate seeing modeled:

Glyph of TotT seems to be worth 0 dps. I realize it's worth 0 personal dps, but I don't think that's what a lot of people are trying to maximize. You could just stick a box under Options that lets us input the dps of our Tricks target, and if someone wants to see their personal dps, they can set it to 0.

Secondly, I realize no one ever takes Turn the Tables (thanks to its position on the tree), but it is most certainly worth some amount of dps. Since it isn't a very complicated talent, I'd appreciate it being added, if only for the sake of completeness.

Nothing of utmost urgency, I realize. But I personally prefer Rawr to spreadsheets, and would love to see Rawr.Rogue rise to the level of Rawr.Mage, in rigour, precision, and popularity.

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