Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05/20/10, 1:59 PM   #181
 Andeh
The Titleless
 
Andeh
Goblin Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Docrev View Post
Andeh, would you mind linking the talent build you were looking at for Assassination? I couldn't see how to get down to the tier with CttC without 7 points of filler (Deadly Brew, Fleet Footed, and Imp. EA): War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents
To get to CttC, I put 1 point in Murderous Intent and filled it out later. I'm operating under the assumption that they will tweak Backstab's damage such that this talent becomes worthwhile (i.e. the DPE of <35% BS is higher than Mutilate). I think this is a reasonable assumption, since the talent is far too deep in the tree to be only a leveling talent, and other classes have similar talents that require them to push a new button in "execute range."

United States Offline
Old 05/20/10, 3:39 PM   #182
kindath
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Andeh View Post
To get to CttC, I put 1 point in Murderous Intent and filled it out later. I'm operating under the assumption that they will tweak Backstab's damage such that this talent becomes worthwhile (i.e. the DPE of <35% BS is higher than Mutilate). I think this is a reasonable assumption, since the talent is far too deep in the tree to be only a leveling talent, and other classes have similar talents that require them to push a new button in "execute range."
It kind of already is. Assuming I'm reading DrDamage right, and I'd like to think I am, the DPE of my backstab is 77.7 and the DPE of my mutilate is 83.3 with all relative buffs, debuffs, talents, and glyphs. (With a slow mainhand, of course. Fast mainhand would weaken the talent quite a bit.) If backstab returns half its energy cost, wouldn't the DPE jump straight up to 155.4?

I realize DrDamage might not take into account the chance for an extra poison proc on the offhand, but it definately takes into account the poison proc on the mainhand. And mutilate may give you an extra focused attack proc, but it's hard to make up such a huge difference in DPE.

The thing holding back normally backstab is the lack of combo point generation, but since every mutilate spec picks up puncturing wounds and below 35% you'd be getting almost two backstabs for the same cost as mutilate... seal fate + ~90% crit backstab x 2 = 3.8 combo points average? vs 2.94 average for a mutilate with 75% crit?

I will definitely be picking up backstabecute.

EDIT: Actually, for some reason I thought Murderous Intent was taking the place of Find Weakness, which makes a lot more sense to me. Why put it on a row with two three point talents and a one pointer already, instead of the one with only one three point talent? Now that I realize it's in a different position my opinion may change.

Last edited by kindath : 05/20/10 at 5:21 PM.

Offline
Old 05/20/10, 5:46 PM   #183
xriotx
Glass Joe
 
xriotx's Avatar
 
Pandaren Rogue
 
Illidan (EU)
New updates (still from 4 days ago) bu new patch is being added as i'm talking, it means more details real soon :
  • Ambush : Ability can now be used with any type of weapon.
    > Level 81 tooltip : "Ambush the target, causing 190% weapon damage plus 642. (275% plus 930 if it's a dagger). Must be in stealth and behind. Awards 2 combo points."
  • Expose Armor : Armor reduction bumped down to 12%, but lasts for 10/20/30/40/50 seconds (based on combo points).
  • Fan of Knives : Now requires thrown weapon to be used. Cooldown is currently based on the throwing weapon speed. Cooldown affected by haste.


Edit : Talents were updated with combat tree (now showing) : War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents

Last edited by xriotx : 05/20/10 at 6:23 PM.

Offline
Old 05/20/10, 7:50 PM   #184
 Andeh
The Titleless
 
Andeh
Goblin Rogue
 
No WoW Account
One consequence I noticed with the move of Blood Spatter and the move/change to Serrated Blades is they have (unintentionally) left Combat with 0 Rupture talents. Every one of it's reachable damage ability talents are for either SS, BS, or Eviscerate. As a consequence, it would currently be the most simple rotation, performing only SS, SnD, and Evis, while Assassination would be performing Mutilate (BS <35%), Envenom, and Rupture and Subtlety would be performing Hemo, SnD, Rupture, and Evis. (Discounting cooldowns in all specs).

We'll likely see some Tier 5 or 6 talent that adds some sort of proc effect off Rupture ticks, like we've seen in Assassination or Subtlety. Those Tiers for Combat are very barren, both of damage talents, and talents in general, due to the removal of weapon specs.

United States Offline
Old 05/20/10, 8:10 PM   #185
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I think it's highly speculative to suggest that combat needs a rupture talent, or that the change isn't intentional. It certainly might be, but it's by no means certain - there's no rule that says that all specs have to use all moves. Personally, I see no problem with having one spec that doesn't use rupture, and frankly, combat is as good a choice in that respect as any. It's true that it may wind up with fewer noncooldown moves, but the fact that it has a lot more cooldowns - and now a talent to improve them - means the spec may not be fundamentally easier to play even if it has fewer moves in it's standard rotation.

Also, in general, we should try to refrain from highly speculative discussion about what we expect Blizzard to do. It's fine to say that the trees in their current form might move combat away from rupture (though without knowing the damage scaling of rupture we can't even really say that). It's fine to observe that this gives Combat fewer finishers. And if there were blue posts by Blizzard indicating that Rupture was an essential ability for all rogue specs, it'd be even fine to suggest that they'll probably fix it. But there's not. And speculating without any basis in fact as to what Blizzard's objectives might be, and/or inventing new abilities to address the theoretical problem, seems beyond the scope of the discussions we want to have on this forum.

To be clear, I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular - there's simply a convenient example here. I'm simply indicating the sorts of discussion that we want to have moving forward - which involves analysis of abilities and the resultant spec/gear/cycle decisions that result, but stop short of attempting to moonlight as game designers in most cases. There's a time and a place for that, but this forum is not one of them.

Offline
Old 05/21/10, 1:41 AM   #186
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
One observation I'd like to make is that for Combat, Hemo is relatively easy to reach.

Something like: War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents

Hemo + Relentless at the cost of poison talents and a chunk of lethality. Could be viable enough, or maybe only in raids w/o other sources of mangle like 10 mans. Again would have to know the numbers first.

Canada Offline
Old 05/21/10, 2:27 AM   #187
Docrev
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Zul'Jin
Given the rearrangement of subtle talents and the addition of some interesting deep assassination talents (specifically, Murderous Intent and Venomous Wounds), it looks to me like the best option is to go for a combat subspec, allowing you to talent into Blade Flurry and Lightning Reflexes, as shown here: War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents
The issue is that out of the 21 points in the combat tree required to spec into Blade Flurry, only 14 seem to be obvious choices. To cover the remaining seven in this build, I took 2/2 in Endurance for the Sprint CD reduction and increased survivability, and 5/5 in Aggression for the increase to Backstab for when we're using it as an execute.

As for a subtlety subspec, it just doesn't seem to make as much sense with the Serrated Blades change. The talents of interest there seem to be Relentless Strikes, Opportunity, Elusiveness, and Dagger Specialization, but the cost in lost talents from the Combat tree such as Precision, Lightning Reflexes, and Blade Flurry seems to be too much of a cost. The only real possibility I see going into the Subtlety tree at all would be this spec, with one remaining floater point: War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents
The advantage of this build would be that in the two trees other than Assassination, no filler is taken, but it'd take some harder numbers on the coefficients and gear stats to say whether the increased Backstab, Mutilate, and Rupture damage along with the RS energy return would cancel out the loss of Lightning Reflexes and Blade Flurry.

I'm inclined to say that the 55/21/0 should be at least comparable to the 56/10/9 (plus one floater point) build for single target fights and better for situations with adds, such as Anub'arak back in ToC, but I don't think we can come to any conclusions yet.

Offline
Old 05/21/10, 3:06 AM   #188
zhrgg
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Blackrock
Is there a reason as to why you're not considering a XX/XX/5 build? RS by itself is an excellent talent to take for any situation, and something like 51/20/5 build could be viable as well. Or put 1 point into Blade Flurry and make that 4 RS: War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents

Imp SnD to cover for 2/5 CttC, and barring horrible RNG, you should be able to refresh SnD within 30 seconds before it drops off.

Offline
Old 05/21/10, 5:53 AM   #189
Mosq
Glass Joe
 
`
Gnome Priest
 
No WoW Account
One thing to note about Murderous Intent is that Shred was changed to 50 energy (from 60) two Alpha patches ago. Whether that has any bearing on Backstab is yet to be determined. All three trees are going to get a lot more work, I would expect Combat to get the 'Multi Weapon Hack and Slash' talent back that they talked about in the class update. On the Alpha right now Blizzard has been heavily focusing on Feral Druids and Rogues so there may be some more info shortly.

Offline
Old 05/21/10, 11:13 PM   #190
kindath
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
Talent tree has been updated again.

Cold blood is now a 2 minute cooldown and generates 25 energy when used. At least this elevates it slightly from "just macro it to envenom."

Some talents have changed places, notably Puncturing Wounds, which I find slightly odd as it forces mutilate builds to spend filler points just to reach the 3rd tier. Murderous intent also dropped down a tier to a better position.

Thus far I'm liking 54/18/4, 51/21/4 (likely giving up bleeds in favour of blade flurry to focus on poison damage, since it is the tree's mastery bonus) (double edit, I somehow missed that the extra damage dealt by venemous wounds is poison damage. -_-), and 54/10/8 + 4 (with the 4 potentially in aggression, since you're picking up 3/3 opportunity)

The points in remorseless are for lack of better options. There may be some fight where adds need to be killed, and any fight you'd have to use eviscerate instead of envenom would be tipped severely in favour of combat or sub already.

Last edited by kindath : 05/21/10 at 11:26 PM.

Offline
Old 05/21/10, 11:14 PM   #191
Corrahn
Glass Joe
 
Corrahn's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Hellscream
edit: (I posted too slow I guess, I apologize)

Found these, and the calculator previously posted here has been updated as well: War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents

v12065

Assassination

* Remorseless Attacks now affects all of your abilities.
* Vile Poisons now also gives your Fan of Knives ability a chance to apply the poisons on your melee weapons equal to 33/66/100% of the chance that they would normally apply from your melee weapons. It no longer gives your poisons additional resistance to dispel effects.
* Cold Blood now also generates 25 energy and has a 2 min cooldown, down from 3 min.
* Turn the Tables now also affects opening moves.
* Murderous Intent moved up one row.

Subtlety

* Ghostly Strike removed.
* Initiative moved up one row.
* Honor Among Thieves now only affects physical critical strike chance, only activates on a physical ability critical hit in the raid, and can only grant a combo point every 4 sec, down from 2.

Last edited by Corrahn : 05/22/10 at 12:19 AM.

Offline
Old 05/21/10, 11:19 PM   #192
Docrev
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by zhrgg View Post
Is there a reason as to why you're not considering a XX/XX/5 build? RS by itself is an excellent talent to take for any situation, and something like 51/20/5 build could be viable as well. Or put 1 point into Blade Flurry and make that 4 RS: War Tools :: Talent tree Broaclysm Gamma Talents

Imp SnD to cover for 2/5 CttC, and barring horrible RNG, you should be able to refresh SnD within 30 seconds before it drops off.
The reason why I wasn't considering, say, a 52/21/3 build was that I was running under the assumption that Rupture and Backstab (as an execute) would both be viable, and in fact desired, in Cataclysm. In the event that one or the both isn't, then you could move either two point from Murderous Intent (in the case that Mutilate still is more favorable than Backstab during the execute phase, or if Backstab in execute is worth less than constant 2/5 RS) or all three from Venomous Wounds (if Rupture is nonviable/worse than 3/5 RS). I'd be extremely leary about 2/5 CttC, though.

For some rough math, neglecting the effect of Focused Attacks and assuming you put 2/2 points in Imp. SnD, you'd regenerate 315 energy over the course of the Slice and Dice's full duration. Assuming perfect luck with Ruthlessness and Seal Fate as well as the 4/5 RS working every time, you'd be able to pull off four Evenoms (4 x 55 (Mutilate) + 4 x 35 (Evenom) - 4 x 25 (RS) = 260, leaving you enough for an additional Mutilate but not the following Envenom).

Given that we now have the variables required, we can determine the probability that this will fail to proc CttC. The variables needed are the probability (p) of the event occurring on each attempt (40%), the number of attempts (n=4), and the number of successful attempts (s=0), we can use the equation P(s|n) = n!*p^s*q^t / (s!*t!), with t=n-s and q=1-p. Given that in the circumstances described, n! = s!t! and p^s = 1, this reduces to the P(0|4) = (1-0.4)^4. This gives us an approximately 13% chance that 2/5 CttC will fail to proc on four Envenoms during a 31.5 second Slice and Dice, and that's assuming pretty much ideal conditions for this to work. I'm not in favor of a rotation that has a 13% chance of collapsing, though going up to 3/5 CttC lowers the chance of CttC failing to proc to 2.56%, and 4/5 to 0.16%.

At that point, though, I'd probably just take the surety of 5/5 CttC over 4/5 CttC and 1/5 RS, especially considering that I'm ignoring the fact that RS will not necessarily proc especially with fewer points put into it (with 1/5 CttC, for example, you have over a 50% chance of RS not proccing even once, limiting you to three Evenoms, and which would increase the chance of 0 CttC procs to 0.8%) and that you likely won't have the perfect rotation of one Mutilate per Envenom assumed in this math, especially with the lower crit rates we're likely to see in the expansion.

Offline
Old 05/25/10, 10:26 AM   #194
Rahdik
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I think it's highly speculative to suggest that combat needs a rupture talent, or that the change isn't intentional. It certainly might be, but it's by no means certain - there's no rule that says that all specs have to use all moves. Personally, I see no problem with having one spec that doesn't use rupture, and frankly, combat is as good a choice in that respect as any. It's true that it may wind up with fewer noncooldown moves, but the fact that it has a lot more cooldowns - and now a talent to improve them - means the spec may not be fundamentally easier to play even if it has fewer moves in it's standard rotation.
I just find it odd that Subtlety has all these bleed boosts when its 2nd Mastery is Armor Penetration and the first is Melee Damage. Rupture will only be affected by the third Mastery, but maybe that's enough.

I really think the RNG on Serrated Blades is going to be another Eclipse debacle.

Offline
Old 05/25/10, 1:52 PM   #195
Docrev
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Zul'Jin
Given that a good deal of the Eclipse debacle, if I understand it right, was that it made Haste's value drop off a cliff after reaching a soft cap for Wrath, I can't see it being quite the same. Really, it seems to me that the priority list for a Subtlety build would just be this:
1. Keep SnD up.
2. Keep Rupture up.
3. Eviscerate when possible.
And occasionally, when the RNG favors you, #3 helps with #2. When RNG doesn't favor you, you'd just end up with something resembling a high rupture rotation.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cataclysm Priest Changes Narcosleepy Priests 635 12/06/10 4:02 PM
Cataclysm Hunter Changes Narcosleepy Hunters 1262 12/06/10 11:08 AM
Cataclysm Mage Changes Narcosleepy Mages 570 09/07/10 7:07 PM
Cataclysm Paladin Changes Narcosleepy Paladins 137 07/08/10 10:30 AM