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06/11/10, 11:01 PM
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#271
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Rogue
Blackrock
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I've been thinking of attempting a build that requires no filler talents at all, which probably goes against the designers' intentions. This is what I've come up with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (51/21/4)
The filler points are put into Deadly Momentum/Remorseless for AOE fights such as Anub or Saurfang, where add spawns can actually mean a DPS increase (Blade Flurry helps as well). After they die, SnD is refreshed to help with 2/5 CttC. This is also the reason why I put points into Improved SnD, which comes in as a buffer in case bad RNG strikes and SnD cannot be refreshed within 20 seconds. Sub 35%, switching to Backstab will gain the full benefit of Aggression and Puncturing Wounds. If in case Venomous Wounds is not a DPS increase at any point, the points can simply be put back into CttC or even Turn the Tables.
In conclusion, this build focuses on single target damage/tank-spank as well as attempting to gain a small advantage in a fight where adds may spawn. In fights where movement and moving away from the boss is important, the points from Deadly Momentum can be transferred to Fleet Footed instead.
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06/11/10, 11:19 PM
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#272
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Thunderhorn
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If the talent still works as it did a while ago, then Remorseless Attacks is pretty useless even on fights like you mentioned for the sole reason that it requires that you get the killing blow in order to activate. Obviously that can happen, but it's not very reliable. I'm guessing Deadly Momentum would act the same way. It's pretty much a solo-oriented talent.
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06/11/10, 11:24 PM
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#273
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by zhrgg
I've been thinking of attempting a build that requires no filler talents at all, which probably goes against the designers' intentions. This is what I've come up with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (51/21/4)
The filler points are put into Deadly Momentum/Remorseless for AOE fights such as Anub or Saurfang, where add spawns can actually mean a DPS increase (Blade Flurry helps as well). After they die, SnD is refreshed to help with 2/5 CttC. This is also the reason why I put points into Improved SnD, which comes in as a buffer in case bad RNG strikes and SnD cannot be refreshed within 20 seconds. Sub 35%, switching to Backstab will gain the full benefit of Aggression and Puncturing Wounds. If in case Venomous Wounds is not a DPS increase at any point, the points can simply be put back into CttC or even Turn the Tables.
In conclusion, this build focuses on single target damage/tank-spank as well as attempting to gain a small advantage in a fight where adds may spawn. In fights where movement and moving away from the boss is important, the points from Deadly Momentum can be transferred to Fleet Footed instead.
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Why not get fleet footed instead of deadly momentum? I do like the improved SnD + points taken out of cut to the chase though.
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06/11/10, 11:30 PM
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#274
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Rogue
Blackrock
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If Remorseless still works the old way, then it's probably better put into Blackjack and Fleet-Footed for utility I suppose?
The initial reason for getting Deadly Momentum was that I was under the assumption that you didn't need the KB to activate it. If it does, then it loses a lot of attraction.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Something like this then.
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06/12/10, 5:20 AM
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#275
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Rogue
Earthen Ring
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One non-insignificant argument in favour of Blade Flurry over Opportunity as a sub spec is the fact that Vendetta is now a two minute cooldown, conveniently the same length as blade flurry. Cold blood is also on a two minute cooldown, and now restores 25 energy. Which happens to be the same amount of energy that blade flurry costs.
It's like it was meant to be!
But on a more srs note, with current gear and a bit of hacking, BF comes out several hundred DPS ahead, even if I multiply the contribution of opportunity by 1.4 to account for Murderous Intent and Aggression. Not very scientific, mind you, and gear will change, but it's the best I can do at the moment.
If haste increases energy regen like they mentioned previously, the amount of attack speed increase per point of haste will certainly decrease, which pushes away from focusing on haste talents and poison damage. On the other hand, poison damage is the tree's mastery, which pushes in the opposite direction.
One argument I keep hearing about Venomous Wounds is that haste will increase rupture ticks, which I'm not convinced it will. For casters, haste decreases cast times of their spells, directly increasing the amount of damage spells do (and it's balanced around this) so it makes sense to extend this direct increase to DoTs and HoTs as well. For melee, on the other hand, all our abilities are instant and haste effects only passive damage. It makes less sense to apply haste to melee DoTs when it doesn't already effect active damage. We also receive huge amounts of melee haste from abilities, talents, external buffs. So either melee DoTs won't scale off haste (fairly likely) or talents, abilities, and buffs will be considered "attack speed increases" and DoTs will only scale off haste rating (a bit backwards, but a fair compromise).
EDIT: I was comparing 51/21/4 to 54/14/8, for some reason. Maybe the sleepiness. When comparing 51/21/4 to 51/18/7 as I should have in the first place, the numbers are a lot closer. THERE GOES THAT ARGUMENT.
Last edited by kindath : 06/12/10 at 5:29 AM.
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06/12/10, 1:37 PM
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#276
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Piston Honda
Troll Rogue
Genjuros (EU)
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To the people suggesting to spec 2/5 CttC, I think it's worth mentioning it looks as though you'll run into problems if you choose both Venemous Wounds and Murderous Intent at the cost of Cut to the Chase without subspeccing into combat for Imp. SnD. At 2/5 CttC you'll need an average 2.5 Envenoms to renew SnD. 3 Envenoms and 1 Rupture (to enable Venemous Wounds) requires just over 24 seconds of SnD time if current cycle lengths can be assumed to stay more or less the same in Cataclysm. This is problematic as unimproved SnD only last 21 seconds. It's probably possible to maintain the cycle sub 35% with Backstabs, but with only 2/5 CttC it looks as though the cycle will fall apart above 35% if you try to weave in Ruptures. The problem was previously adressed by Vulajin in the wotlk alpha when CttC only procced on crits - a behavior which isn't all that different from 2/5 or 3/5 CttC.
If nothing else it atleast supports the previously mentioned comments about CttC at 5 points for 100% is somewhat problematic - atleast aslong Venemous Wounds remains tied to a Rupture that doesn't refresh SnD through CttC.
Last edited by bural : 06/14/10 at 5:06 PM.
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06/12/10, 2:47 PM
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#277
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Don Flamenco
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Keep in mind that it's not the average number of envenoms we should be focusing on but the worst-case scenario. 2/5 CttC would have snd falling off ridiculously frequently, even if one was only using envenom. And when it does fall off you can no longer use a ruthlessness proc or mutx1, snd and envenom to get a full stack running. You'll need to blow the full 4-5 combo points and waste an entire envenom cycle, exacerbating the issue of having snd downtime in the first place. It's gonna take a lot for venomous wounds to be more valuable than at least 4/5 cttc, it seems. For myself I can't imagine being comfortable with even a reasonably small chance of my entire rotation going to pot.
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06/12/10, 3:01 PM
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#278
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Banned
Troll Shaman
Runetotem (EU)
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kindrath you make a couple of assumptions that are at best equally likely as the opposite.
While Blizzard has pointed in the direction that finishers should do more damage for Rogues, it isn't unlikely at all that combobuilders are supposed to as well. This comes from the intent to lessen poison and passive damage. Unless both are lowered relatively slightly, then finishers can't take up the slack. Combobuilders need to cover some of the loss. If not then you will see complaints from both Rogues and other classes, in the first case about losing out on adds that can't be AoEed etc. and the other case in PvP when Eviscerate eats a huge chuck of HP compared to other classes. It would be a somewhat shaky balance if only finishers got what passive and poisons lost. And remember that SnD doesn't count for finishers as such since it is part of the passive/poison issue (though it is most likely to stay).
Thus, arguing in favour of one or the other spec right now seems rather premature. But listing several potential contenders is what can and should be done (it should be pretty clear soon enough which is better anyway).
The other is that Haste won't affect Rupture (and I assume Garotte and DP). Blizzard has said "all DoTs will scale with Haste and Crit". Understandably some over time effects aren't DoTs, like Piercing Shots, Ignite and Deep Wounds (they would end up triplescaling, which would be plain old nuts). Haste is actually being buffed for physical classes in general because overall casters have benefitted far more from it. It would be silly for Rogues to be singled out in that.
Now I would understand the decision if DP wouldn't scale with Haste/crit since it is a passively applied DoT, but both Rupture and Garotte are actively applied. And Ruture has already scaled(s) with Crit.
It is easier to balance abilities when the same rules apply. And that is most likely why they do it, along with the cheesy feeling it has when your DoTs don't really get that much better, and in some cases drop off the radar *coughRupturecough*.
While I would agree with all the passive Haste stuff Rogues get would get overwhelming, don't just lump it all together. SnD is going to be an attackspeed increase, refering to the WF totem discussion recently. But stuff like Lightning Reflexes are most likely goning to apply (especially since it seems not all specs will grab it).
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06/13/10, 3:58 AM
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#279
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Jubei'Thos
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Originally Posted by moktrizz
3-How is FoK having one poison instead of two a 'hefty buff'?
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Vile Poisons
Rank 0/3
Increases the damage dealt by your poisons and Envenom ability by 7% and gives you 33% of the normal chance of applying poisons from your equipped melee weapons when you use the Fan of Knives ability.
Also, almost everything you've suggested is ridiculous.
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06/13/10, 2:37 PM
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#280
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Glass Joe
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With a 52/21/3 or 51/21/4 spec (one unused point to either spend in CttC or RS) one important consideration is keeping SnD up via <100% proc chance on CttC.
Assuming my math is correct and we can Envenom 3 times in a full duration Imp SnD:
Using the formula P=1-(0.x^4) where x = % chance of proc via CttC
With 2/5 CttC the probability of refreshing SnD via proc over this duration is: 78.4%
With 3/5 CttC the probability of refreshing SnD via proc over this duration is: 93.6%
There are a slew of other variables to consider, such as the possibility of using low CP Envenoms if SnD is below some threshold, at risk of falling off. Additionally the glyphs available to us may drastically change how we use rupture, if at all and the entire spec might look considerably different if the lower passive (poison/white hit) damage reduces our value of haste and makes Opportunity much more attractive. Obviously if you are going to be the rogue exposing your spec will look different.
In any event I think at this point defining the next rogue spec is a bit premature but what I'd like to see is some better math on the possibilities of <5 CttC. Particularly if anyone has math on how many ideal (4cp+) Envenoms we can land in an Imp SnD I'd appreciate it. My assumption above of 3 is purely intuition and has no real mathematical basis.
One thing to consider is the increased crit chance on Backstab (vs Mutilate) and how it affects our rotation. My feeling is that we can expect 2 Backstab's per Envenom nearly always giving us at least a 4 CP finisher with Ruthlessness often leading to 5 CP finishers.
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06/13/10, 4:40 PM
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#281
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Von Kaiser
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First time posting here, so go easy on me.
I'm suggesting a 51/17/8 build. Here's the justification:
51 points in Assassination: Didn't put any points in VW because I'm not convinced that even this improvement to rupture will be enough to displace Envenom as the finisher (I get the feeling I'm not alone here.) Put the three points in MI since there doesn't seem to be any other decent choice, plus I get the feeling Blizzard really wants me to start using Backstab again. All the other points pretty much speak for themselves.
8 points in Subtlety: I like this because now I get the best of both worlds: that lovely guaranteed energy return for RS which I had to give up when I switched to 51/18/2, plus a 30% boost to both Mut. and BS, which I suspect are going to account for a much higher percentage of my overall dps in the next game.
17 points is Combat: 5 each in DWS and Precision are de rigueur. But another 15% increase in BS damage along with the 30% I get from Opportunity is sweet, once again leading me to believe that Blizzard wants BS back on my toolbar right next to mutilate. Plus, I still get some benefit from LR, giving me some of the best features of the 51/18/2 and 51/13/7 spec.
Last edited by fourdots : 06/13/10 at 8:14 PM.
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06/14/10, 12:42 AM
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#282
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Von Kaiser
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Personally I like 51/17/8. It seems like we're going to have a big focus on Backstab sub 35% health, and this spec certainly buffs it to the point where it is a definite execute. I take 2/5 CttC because Imp. SnD should give us enough uptime for CttC to proc, in theory.
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06/14/10, 2:43 PM
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#283
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Glass Joe
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I personally like more the 52/21/3 and that was the first spec that came in my mind when I first saw the new talent tree
I think that BF will go very well with vendetta I think that will be very important in boss fights that u will need a very high dps in a short period of time, like many bosses in LK, this will be much more usefull that a flat 30% boost in mut and bs
and 60% cttc will be enough to keep snd up like radicool said above.
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06/14/10, 3:31 PM
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#284
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Von Kaiser
Orc Warrior
Steamwheedle Cartel
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With regards to Venomous Wounds, I'm pretty sure it'll be worth it. Why? Because Blizzard wants it to be. I think the safest thing we can do in looking at most incoming Cataclysm stuff is to presume that every single number is bogus, but that every meaningful new mechanic is going to be re-tuned to the point where it worthwhile, at least initially. Rupture was worth it throughout Ulduar, and a fair portion of ToC, as we recall.
Of all the specs, the Combat model looks closest to being the same. SS for CP, with two finishers, one which is a buff, the other which is just bigger damage to use when you don't have to worry about buff uptime. Mutilate looks redesigned as if Blizzard is trying to walk-back the fact that they had changed it to a one-finisher model in WotLK, and rather than eliminating CttC they want to reincorporate another finisher, and intend to do so with Venomous Wounds. SnD remaining automatic, they want to bring back the two-finisher model (one "uptime" finisher, one "damage" finisher when the uptime one is safe). This is clearly how they want Mutilate to look in the end.
However, that doesn't mean that VW doesn't look lackluster right now. It appears there is no way for a fixed damage proc to keep up. However, if the VW was rewritten "Your rupture ticks have a 15/30/45% chance to deal one-half (or one-third, or one-quarter, or whatever it takes to make it balanced) your Instant Poison's damage to the target," I highly doubt people would think of it as being quite as unsexy. We know how IP scales, but as written, we have no idea how VW would. At very least, it'd be easier to think about how it'd play out once this all goes live.
///
As to lower numbers of points in CttC, it'd be possible to test some specs like it in live. Drop a few points from it and try it in place of a standard spec, while keeping fairly high rupture uptime. You wouldn't want to do it in a HM fight, but a 277t10 geared rogue doing it in something like a 10m alt run (ie: with raid buffs, fight mechanics like movement, and reasonably high boss health) would probably give a good impression of how such a spec would play. Something like this would probably be a good testing spec. It goes 3/5 Relentless Strikes, since that seems to be a number a fair number of people are suggesting might work given the current Cataclysm trees, as well as 2/2 Imp SnD - both to mimic theoretical Cataclysm specs, rather than provide top DPS. It isn't designed to be a good spec (it's clearly worse), just to give an experienced, tactile sense of playing with a smaller number of points in CttC.
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06/14/10, 5:20 PM
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#285
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Von Kaiser
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I recall a lot of discussion about partial points in CttC as wrath was coming out, and I'd bet money on the same conclusion then being the same conclusion now: Full points or nothing.
Maybe if you are full on spamming envenom you can get away with 4, but in that case, what else are you going to spend talent points on? For all you people hoping that you can get away with partial points, don't forget that not only do you lose the refresh on SnD, but you also lose SnD uptime.
Comments about reducing auto attack damage imply that the value of SnD will be reduced relative to other finishers, but I'll guarantee that SnD is still going to be our top finisher, and 100% uptime will still be a high priority.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll have to see some pretty compelling math to be convinced, particularly math that takes into account lost damage.
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