Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 2

Tinwhisker · 04/09/10, 9:49 AM

Redirect sounds cool, I've seen CPs on dead targets before through different mods so I know it's being tracked, hopefully we don't need the added complexity of another counter because of this but I'm betting that Blizzard is going to give us one anyway and addon designers are going to have to fix it.

Recuperate lets us convert CPs into a HoT based health. I imagine this is going to be like trading massive damage for GotN (without SP scaling). Probably something nice to do if we can use it after the fight on dead enemies but likely so weak in PvE that it won't matter. Think "Cannibalize" for rogues. I'll gladly take it but I'm not excited at all about it for raiding.

Smoke Bomb, let's not kid ourselves here. As good as Smoke bomb could possibly be, first and foremost it is the Vanish fix. It has a 3min cooldown and 10 second duration just like Vanish. There are a couple ways the mechanic could possibly work but my money is that it creates some sort of "LoS bubble" around the rogue's current position. If that's all it does then it's still not a very good fix as missiles in flight will still hit targets inside the bubble. It also needs to have some sort of immunity tied to it as well as any "de-targeting" features or we've simply gained a Vanish that doesn't work for more than just us (Broken mechanics for everyone, yeah!).

They say they're going to move away from auto-attack damage in PvE and move more towards specials. They've said this before and the opposite happened (they also said the opposite in the Q&A just a few months ago). I hope this is true but we'll just have to see.

Sugam · 04/09/10, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Jeppathum

I think people are over complicating the issue of combo points here. As it is now, combo points still exist on a mob while you attack another until you generate some on the new mob, if you don't generate new ones you can go back to the first target and they are still there, all this is doing is saying that you can use them without retargeting the first mob.

But not using any generators just to keep some point on a target seems wasted. You aren't going to go into Professor Putricide and not use Sinister Strike on the slimes.

Rippner · 04/09/10, 11:11 AM

If i am not mistaken the Recuperate skill was only going to be intended for low level rogues so they can level faster. I don't believe it will be available to use a level 80 for pvp nor pve.

Rakkniv · 04/09/10, 11:11 AM

Is it just me or were there a bug in Vanilla with CP's being usable on dead mobs?
Or maybe this was back in the beta. That way you could always SnD on your way to the next mob while grinding.

Do you guys think that envenom will work on dead mobs? Would be kind of nice to run into the next add with a 3-4s envenombuff. Fast deadly application and shorter ramp up time for mutilate speccs.

Jeppathum · 04/09/10, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Sugam

But not using any generators just to keep some point on a target seems wasted.

It is wasted. But with the changes you'll be able to use them to HoT yourself as you run to the slime. I'm not saying that you should not SS just to keep CPs on Putricide, I'm saying that the ones you would otherwise waste are still there as you run away, and you will now be able to use them.

My original point was that there will be no need to have a second CP counter, there won't be any more CPs than there are now, just that some that are now wasted, won't be.

Also, you can't attack a dead target, so anything that would count as an attack won't work. Only self buffs will be able to use CPs from dead or detargeted mobs. Or at least that's how I read it.

frosiah · 04/09/10, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Rippner

If i am not mistaken the Recuperate skill was only going to be intended for low level rogues so they can level faster. I don't believe it will be available to use a level 80 for pvp nor pve.

I'm not aware of any spells or abilities that are prohibited at max level. It is cataclysm, so things are certain to change, but simply removing an ability that functions as a bandage after a certain level seems counter-intuitive to the "survivalism" they want to give rogues.

sedrikk · 04/09/10, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Rakkniv

Is it just me or were there a bug in Vanilla with CP's being usable on dead mobs?
Or maybe this was back in the beta. That way you could always SnD on your way to the next mob while grinding.

It was a bug in vanilla. My initial thought was, oh how nice, they are reintroducing a "bug" they took away back in Molten Core.

latchton · 04/09/10, 11:54 AM

Numbers aren't quite hammered out yet but it restores based on max health and the more combo points used the longer it lasts. While it's introduced as a low level ability it obviously scales with gear and base health upgrades (being based on max health and all) and be useful for more than just leveling.

That was posted by Bashiok clarifying the Recuperate ability.

Brotherbear · 04/09/10, 11:56 AM

I have to admit that Smoke Bomb interests me solely because of the lack of restriction it places on friendly targets inside of it for targetting. Also it specifies that the enemy cannot target you with single target abilities, but the wording indicates they can still target you (so the Valkyrs could still pick up people in smoke) so that should be interesting.

PvP:
Specifically I'm thinking about arenas. Smoke bomb gives your ranged near total freedom to CC and dps the enemy team with impunity for at least a couple of globals. And Smoke bomb will destroy warriors (no charging or intercepting thanks) though I suspect their new Heroic Leap will be a work around. It's hard to imagine a 5v5 team that won't want a rogue.

PvE:
I'm really interested to see how this affects the PvE experience. Can bosses target people in smoke bomb for abilities? Just looking at ICC, we're talking about:
LK: Defile
Sindragosa: Ice Tombs, Unchained Magic
Putricide: Malleable Goo

With 3 rogues on the LK fight, you could, in theory, smoke bomb almost every defile cast. And depending on implementation (if the cast fails) you could actually trivialize the mechanic by removind defile entirely from phase 2.
Now admitedly the LK fight will be pretty meaningless at level 85, but we can safely assume "the boss casts a spell at person X" will be a mechanic that will continue to exist in the expansion.

Gunjin · 04/09/10, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bunta601

I don't think they force us to range weapon only. My interpreation is that FoK damage will be based off the ranged weapon no matter what type of weapon of equipped, however we will be able to poison our thrown weapon. This situation would point to FoK poisons only being able to proc if the weapon is a thrown and has a poison currently applied to it. This would lead to a situation where by we have a choice to apply three poisons for say crippling poison to slow the target with for a quick deadly throw using a previous example.

Ghostcrawler posted an update that seems to indicate that rogues will indeed go thrown weapon only:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We just want the ranged weapon to be more than a stat stick for rogues. Adding poisons to FoK is actually a pretty hefty buff. Yes, this means that bows and guns aren't of much interest to rogues (after leveling). But in this case we want Fan of KNIVES to be taken literally.

Seems odd that ranged weapon usage gets even more limited in scope, it's going to make for more loot table dilution. Bosses are going to have to drop an agi based thrown only for rogues, an agi based bow/gun/xbow only for hunters, and tank stat based ranged only for warriors.

Macnaaria · 04/09/10, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Rakkniv

Is it just me or were there a bug in Vanilla with CP's being usable on dead mobs?
Or maybe this was back in the beta. That way you could always SnD on your way to the next mob while grinding....

It wasn't a bug as much as it was just the way it was. Any combo points left on a mob when dead were usable for quite a while. I used it strategically all the time when moving from mob to mob. It sucked when they "fixed" it.

Bonestorm · 04/09/10, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gunjin

Ghostcrawler posted an update that seems to indicate that rogues will indeed go thrown weapon only:

Seems odd that ranged weapon usage gets even more limited in scope, it's going to make for more loot table dilution. Bosses are going to have to drop an agi based thrown only for rogues, an agi based bow/gun/xbow only for hunters, and tank stat based ranged only for warriors.

They'll probably continue to put most thrown weapons on vendors rather than clutter boss loot pools, warrior ranged stat sticks will probably go the same direction.

darathis · 04/09/10, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by frosiah

I'm not aware of any spells or abilities that are prohibited at max level. It is cataclysm, so things are certain to change, but simply removing an ability that functions as a bandage after a certain level seems counter-intuitive to the "survivalism" they want to give rogues.

i think it's going still be there at higher levels but the amount healed will be to small to make any diference.

Istaril · 04/09/10, 1:21 PM

An explanation for Smoke Bomb:

Originally Posted by Hunter Preview

If you target a camo hunter or a rogue using Smoke Bomb, you will get an error message saying something like "Target obscured." You can see them and target them, but can't use your attacks. Imagine they are behind a pillar or something. You can try and get off an AE near them or you can move to melee.

This will hopefully settle the debate here - and from a mechanistic perspective, makes a lot of sense. We can then assume that in pve it will function similarly, and not mess with threat/aggro at all - as suggested previously.

Krowe · 04/09/10, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by darathis

i think it's going still be there at higher levels but the amount healed will be to small to make any diference.

It's going to be a % of health and will scale with level and gear, as per:

While it's introduced as a low level ability it obviously scales with gear and base health upgrades (being based on max health and all) and be useful for more than just leveling.