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06/19/10, 3:43 PM
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#301
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
So far as I know (and by all means correct me if I'm wrong), energy regen from haste is *in addition to* the current attack speed increase, and not a replacement for it. That is: haste will do everything it does now, plus some extra stuff as well.
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Yeah, this was my understanding as well. A fair chunk of the reason haste has gotten so strong was the deadly change, and like Ald said, I'm pretty positive that the conversion into energy regen is in addition to it's current effect of speeding up white attacks. So to say haste is not going to be good is probably incorrect, at least given what we know so far.
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06/19/10, 4:18 PM
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#302
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Piston Honda
Troll Rogue
Moonglade (EU)
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Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS
Yeah, this was my understanding as well. A fair chunk of the reason haste has gotten so strong was the deadly change, and like Ald said, I'm pretty positive that the conversion into energy regen is in addition to it's current effect of speeding up white attacks. So to say haste is not going to be good is probably incorrect, at least given what we know so far.
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I could be wrong but I'm sure i read somewhere that the energy regen would replace white damage speed increase but I can't seem to find where it was.... either way I'm not suggesting that haste wont be good, just that it could be less attractive to mutilate than it is currently.
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06/19/10, 9:26 PM
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#303
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Rogue
Smolderthorn
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Haste will continue to improve attack speed in addition to the increased resources/time. I don't have the blue post link off the top of my head, but I remember reading this, and WoWwiki says the same thing.
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06/19/10, 11:06 PM
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#304
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Bald Bull
Dwarf Rogue
Scarlet Crusade
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Originally Posted by Fnar
I could be wrong but I'm sure i read somewhere that the energy regen would replace white damage speed increase but I can't seem to find where it was.... either way I'm not suggesting that haste wont be good, just that it could be less attractive to mutilate than it is currently.
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Haste almost has to continue to improve attack speed or else it becomes quite devalued for classes like Warriors, Paladins, and Shaman. For example, why would Shaman want to worry about Windfury totem if it didn't improve attack speed? Their DPS model isn't (and won't be) based on their mana regen so a purely resource regen stat doesn't make sense.
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06/20/10, 5:19 PM
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#307
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The Titleless
Andeh
Goblin Rogue
No WoW Account
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EFB.
However, you can see from leaked buff info that buffs only increase melee attack speed (Slice n Dice, Windfury, Bloodlust).
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06/21/10, 6:41 PM
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#308
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Rogue
Wrathbringer (EU)
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Originally Posted by Andeh
EFB.
However, you can see from leaked buff info that buffs only increase melee attack speed (Slice n Dice, Windfury, Bloodlust).
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Which is a good thing. My hand couldn't stand a permanent Adrenaline Rush.
Speaking of this, there might come up a potential problem. "Too much energy". Especially when ARush is up, you might not be able to spend all of the energy you gain if you end up with enough haste (think of an end game gear set with tons of hase etc). Vitality is still there, is it?
There are a few ways to counter this that I can think of:
1) Decrease the current standard energy regeneration rate. Be careful not to set it too low, or playing at low gear levels will become very tedious.
2) Install a (hard) cap for energy regeneration. Kind of inelegant, but might work.
3) There's no straight increase in the rate of regeneration, but some sort of (complicated and hopefully balanced) levelled curve. Think of Dodge and Parry diminishing returns. More fun for the theorycrafters.
4) Haste does increase regeneration only by a tiny amount, thus offering enough leeway for more advanced gear.
I kind of don't like any of these options. I hope they come up with something better than I can think of.
tl;dr
Mindlessly mashing buttons is no fun. Especially not with a GCD of 1.0 seconds.
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06/21/10, 7:07 PM
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#309
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by sp00n
Speaking of this, there might come up a potential problem. "Too much energy".
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Adding an ability like the new Heroic Strike that scales how much of a resource it uses based on how much is available?
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06/21/10, 7:19 PM
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#310
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The Titleless
Andeh
Goblin Rogue
No WoW Account
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If it really becomes a problem, I imagine the easiest solution would be to make Eviscerate behave like Ferocious Bite (base cost 35 energy, plus anything more turns into bonus damage).
Alternately, one could try to avoid timing AR such that it overlaps with melee attack speed buffs (which increase Combat Potency gains). I already run into issues with this on the LK pull when I get the DBW Haste proc and already have Bloodlust + Blade Flurry + Potion of Speed + AR up.
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06/21/10, 8:10 PM
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#311
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Piston Honda
Draenei Shaman
Earthen Ring
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Haste is the 2nd mastery (Mastery being harder hitting CP gen abilities) so that can always be tweaked at end game or they can simply remove Vitality/revamp it at end game if energy regen gets out of control.
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06/21/10, 8:20 PM
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#312
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Andeh
EFB.
However, you can see from leaked buff info that buffs only increase melee attack speed (Slice n Dice, Windfury, Bloodlust).
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Even if those buffs only increase melee attack speed, it doesn't mean that haste rating on gear won't increase energy regeneration rate. Those buffs aren't our only source of haste. Gear is as well.
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06/21/10, 9:14 PM
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#313
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Piston Honda
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Yes, but by separating melee attack speed buffs from haste on gear, it becomes easier to manage them independently. Mind you, if Combat Potency or Focused Attacks remain, which they currently are in the Blizzard-released trees, they can't decouple melee attack speed buffs from energy regen entirely, but it certainly is more manageable
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06/21/10, 9:19 PM
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#314
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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I don't think we're in any particular danger of having "too much" energy in the sense of not physically being able to spend all the energy we're regenerating. I can conceive of it happening during AR, but I'm not honestly that worried about that situation. It's a DPS cooldown; if you have to time it's usage well and spam like crazy to minimize the amount of it you waste, so be it. And outside of AR... I mean, the standard combat cycle uses at least 35 energy per second, and even with Vitality and Combat potency that's well out of the reach of any amount of haste you're actually going to obtain. So it's not like we're going to have serious issues with not being able to keep up, outside AR and perhaps the occasional RNG spike.
And, at some level, it's fine that the class is spammy. I don't remember where it was, precisely, but I'm pretty sure I read something from Blizzard asserting that rogues were supposed to be the class that required the most input spam to play, and if we're being realistic most of us spam way more often that we actually perform moves anyway. So it's not really a bad thing that we're going to get up into the range of doing a move every 2 seconds.
The problem, as I see it, is that energy regen *is* getting to a point where we start to lose some of our class-defining identity. At current, we're one of the very few classes that is resource limited rather than time limited in terms of our DPS cycle. That is: what controls the rate at which a boomkin deals out damage is generally not their mana pool, but the simple fact that moves have cast times and they're basically casting full time all the time. Ret Paladins are not limited by mana, but by what moves are off cooldown for them to do at any given moment. That is: many if not most classes are limited in their DPS cycle by the fact that they simply don't have any more time to do moves (or don't have anything left off cooldown to do), and the resource system is basically only a limit to either a) longevity or b) (in the case of, for instance, DKs) which moves they're doing at any given time.
Rogues, on the other hand, have historically been different in that we're only doing moves about 1/3 of the time; we spend a fairly significant amount of time waiting for energy to do that next move. And what makes this interesting is the fact that time is not really a limiting resource; unlike other classes, we can manage our resources to create bursts of damage at particular times without reducing our overall DPS output. DKs are to some extent getting this ability in Cat, but outside of that (and obviously feral druids) we're somewhat unique in that respect - the fact that optimal play of a rogue is only partly about what moves you're doing - it's also about when you do those moves.
And this is what we're starting to be in danger of losing in Cat. With increased regen from haste plus Combat Potency and Vitality, it's not at all unreasonable that our regen may approach 20 energy per second, which means our maximum available pooling time - the largest amount of time we can allow to safely elapse between having enough energy to perform our next move and actually doing the move - is down to about 2 seconds. The notion of saving up for a burst of damage (or to improve the alignment of other timers - for instance, SnD/Rupture refreshes) is severely hampered because... well, because we just can't save for very long without capping out.
Hence, I'd like to see them do something to help restore this aspect of our play, which basically comes down to one of two things: either a) reduce our regen (the obvious solution to which would be to remove the not-terribly-interesting Vitality talent, though a nerf to Combat Potency might also work), or increase the size of the energy bar. It wouldn't even need to be by a lot - 120 instead of 100 would make a significant difference - but an adjustment of this sort would have significant benefits toward maintaining the playstyle of the class.
One could argue, of course, that Vigor is placed in the talent trees such that those rogues who need it can get it; the difficulty being that the benefits of a larger energy bar in PvE are largely stylistic/qualify of life, and to the extent that it is a raw DPS increase it's a circumstantial one at best - that is, Vigor is the very definition of a filler talent. And the problem is, the trees as currently constructed leave basically no room for filler in offspec trees (and no real room for filler at all in Assassination). Hence, Vigor as it stands really does not address the concern. If, however, the ability were made more accessible - for instance, by being converted wholly to a minor or medium glyph - that might also be a way of addressing the issue.
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06/22/10, 11:31 AM
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#315
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Bald Bull
Dwarf Rogue
Scarlet Crusade
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Besides rogues and DKs, hunters are also moving to a resource limited model; although theirs differs in that they have an active source of regen (unlike our passive sources). That is to say, most abilities have a cost but they have a few (two?) damaging moves that create active regen.
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