Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 40

Rilias · 07/25/10, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Yes, it's pretty awful.

I would argue that trying to maintain the largest possible rolling rupture is just as bad.
Or isn't that the alternative we are looking at?

Dots scaling up and down with all buffs all the time would be a godsend to fluid play.

Pyriana · 07/25/10, 9:44 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

*and* the same amount of haste

this is wrong, haste doesn't matter; here is an example

Edit: with the haste I have in that screenshot 912/27.81%, I get 13 tick ruptures normally, so it appears when you refresh rupture you get 1 last tick + your normal amount of ticks, OR it's under the same haste effects as it was with the speed pot, which is 14 ticks, I'm gonna do another test with kiss of the spider and DBW haste proc to verify this.

edit2: with 912 baste haste and 2312 proc haste I got 16 ticks, refreshed rupture and got 14 ticks, I don't know the tick amount @ 2312 haste, but rupture started @ 54:20 and was refreshed @ 54:39, so I'm guessing I refreshed before the last tick and that last tick was added on, this also proves that the haste doesn't carry over between rupture refreshes.

it kinda sounds like maybe we'll start using black magic instead of zerking and forgoing proc items in general, if we want to keep 100% rupture uptime

Tinwhisker · 07/25/10, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pyriana

this is wrong, haste doesn't matter; here is an example

I'm fairly certain I did it correctly the first time but I suppose not. I'd like to retest myself for my own sanity but after attempting to remove all proc items from my character, my client now continually crashes with an assertion failure.

Edit: Ok, way too many crashes later and I can say for sure that I either did something wrong the first time or there was a fix on the server side. Smart money is on the former but after going through the same routine I got the same result as Pyriana this time.

Pyriana · 07/26/10, 12:58 AM

It was prolly zerking or the icc ring or something, I missed those the first time through but I knew it was wrong because I remembered when I was testing other stuff earlier that I didn't have a problem refreshing when some kind of haste was up.

StoicRoivaS · 07/26/10, 2:24 AM

Originally Posted by Docrev

I suspect the reason they changed it was that it was basically useless to everyone except cloth healers and cloth DPS. For them, trading spirit for hit or vice versa would make sense, as holy/disc priests have little need for hit, while mages and warlocks will have no use for spirit in Cataclysm. For rogues, however, if we go by the current EP values, the only conversion that would remotely make sense with my gear, for example, would be ArPen to Expertise. Everything else would be a loss of EP, as I would expect it to be for most mutilate-specced rogues.

There are plenty of feasible situations in which it would be optimal, even for us. I think you're just looking at the weights on your current sheet and going from there. You have to pull back your perspective a bit to see the other ways.

Does anyone have any more current info either way? I think the GC interview is really the most recent news on it unless it's in beta somehow. If there is no overall stat point loss, then basically everyone in the game will reforge basically every piece they can, outside of a few pretty specific circumstances. Unless they did a pretty much full 180, I don't think this was the goal.

Pyriana · 07/26/10, 3:43 AM

Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS

There are plenty of feasible situations in which it would be optimal, even for us. I think you're just looking at the weights on your current sheet and going from there. You have to pull back your perspective a bit to see the other ways.

Does anyone have any more current info either way? I think the GC interview is really the most recent news on it unless it's in beta somehow. If there is no overall stat point loss, then basically everyone in the game will reforge basically every piece they can, outside of a few pretty specific circumstances. Unless they did a pretty much full 180, I don't think this was the goal.

It's in beta according to the patch notes, but not currently working, the npc is there and you can click the dialogue but nothing happens.

As for reforging all your gear, I think it's a way for people that are "good" and know their stuff, to stand out a few % more than people who are just doing what they feel is right or what they think is the coolest or whatever, they've always wanted to separate the bad people from the good people, just not by the margin of Feral Druid, and not by the margin of rogue, they want a happy medium from what I've read which this could help achieve. At the same time, they didn't want there to be a huge difference between people who know how to spec and people who don't, so at this point you can probably load up a tree with all your talent points and only be down a couple % in dps whereas before you could totally destroy your dps even if you took all talents that technically improve your dps.

Beepbeeps · 07/26/10, 3:34 PM

As far as I remember from an old blue post. Reforging will only let you change a stat into one that does not currently exist on the gear. You will not be able to turn +Hit into +Agi if there is already Agility on the gear.

Can anyone in beta verify this or find the blue post that states it was changed?

Docrev · 07/26/10, 3:50 PM

Incidentally, you can't change primary stats with reforging at all:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker | Reforging: Spirit a Primary or Secondary Stat

StoicRoivaS · 07/26/10, 8:18 PM

It was stated that you cannot add at stat already on gear very early in the process, but I also recall them giving an example/announcement where they did exactly this. They also at one point stated that primary stats *aside from stam* could be reforged because they didn't want all non-tanks to take stam off of every piece, and likewise, they didn't want all tanks to simply add stam to every piece. It seems like the specifics might not be set in stone yet.

On the topic of separating good from bad players via reforging, I don't think this really accomplishes that, though I do agree that mechanics in the game that do so are good. If you can reforge every piece (barring the odd cases where you actually don't want to) I get the feeling it will more or less become the thing that people come here for. Sure, you can work around the subtleties of poison hit, white hit, exp cap, etc, but I think even your mediocre rogues have a fair grasp on that stuff. And your bad rogues are just gonna read somewhere: "Drop stats A, B, and C in that order if they exist on the piece, and add stats X, Y, and Z in that order." There isn't really a ton of room to demonstrate mastery of the class within the rules so far, at least that I see.

Docrev · 07/26/10, 9:40 PM

Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS

There are plenty of feasible situations in which it would be optimal, even for us. I think you're just looking at the weights on your current sheet and going from there. You have to pull back your perspective a bit to see the other ways.

Does anyone have any more current info either way? I think the GC interview is really the most recent news on it unless it's in beta somehow. If there is no overall stat point loss, then basically everyone in the game will reforge basically every piece they can, outside of a few pretty specific circumstances. Unless they did a pretty much full 180, I don't think this was the goal.

As it currently is stated to work, (the 100/0 -> 60/40 concept), it's could be quite useful for us. The 100/0 -> 0/50 model really wouldn't work for us at all. The only situations where the latter would be useful is in the case of a stat that either doesn't belong on gear that we should be rolling on, or stats that somehow are weakened to the point of uselessness. Without worries about capping stats, which they stated should be impossible in Catacylsm except in the case of hit (which for us, is most likely referring to yellow/spell hit) and expertise, there shouldn't really be many situations where a single stat becomes worth over twice as much as another stat, with the possible exception being the theorized haste break points, though gemming and enchants would likely be better ways to take advantage of that as well.

As for the specifics of the reforging process, it seems appropriate to work off of the interview and the blue post I linked to a few posts previously as that's the most recent data we have. It's the beta, and therefore still subject to change (and from the comments of people in the beta, not yet implemented anyway), but it's what we have.

Finally, it should do the same amount to differentiate people who know what they're doing from people who don't as gemming currently does. Yes, you can get fairly close to the maximum DPS by gemming, say, straight AP, but depending on your current gear and raid buffs, your best choice may actually be hit, haste, AP, crit, agility, or expertise. By paying attention to what gear you have, checking the simulations and spreadsheets, and staying up to date on the current theorycrafting, the better players may be able to eke out that last percent or two of DPS compared to the people who just go by a guide, whcih could very well be out of date in its stat priority.

StoicRoivaS · 07/26/10, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Docrev

As it currently is stated to work, (the 100/0 -> 60/40 concept), it's could be quite useful for us. The 100/0 -> 0/50 model really wouldn't work for us at all. The only situations where the latter would be useful is in the case of a stat that either doesn't belong on gear that we should be rolling on, or stats that somehow are weakened to the point of uselessness. Without worries about capping stats, which they stated should be impossible in Catacylsm except in the case of hit (which for us, is most likely referring to yellow/spell hit) and expertise, there shouldn't really be many situations where a single stat becomes worth over twice as much as another stat, with the possible exception being the theorized haste break points, though gemming and enchants would likely be better ways to take advantage of that as well.

As for the specifics of the reforging process, it seems appropriate to work off of the interview and the blue post I linked to a few posts previously as that's the most recent data we have. It's the beta, and therefore still subject to change (and from the comments of people in the beta, not yet implemented anyway), but it's what we have.

Finally, it should do the same amount to differentiate people who know what they're doing from people who don't as gemming currently does. Yes, you can get fairly close to the maximum DPS by gemming, say, straight AP, but depending on your current gear and raid buffs, your best choice may actually be hit, haste, AP, crit, agility, or expertise. By paying attention to what gear you have, checking the simulations and spreadsheets, and staying up to date on the current theorycrafting, the better players may be able to eke out that last percent or two of DPS compared to the people who just go by a guide, whcih could very well be out of date in its stat priority.

If passive damage gets toned down a bit (which is a directly stated goal) then white hit past the spell cap could be dumped for your best stat, white hit past the melee cap for your best stat, exp past the cap for your best stat, mastery past the (possible) cap, arp past the cap (in today's world), crit over the crit cap, your weakest stat for your best stat if it's better by a factor of (1 / conversion rate) which is very possible as shown by todays weights, and a slightly less obvious case of various softcaps on certain stats. For instance how casters frequently have haste softcaps they work around, we could feasibly be working around crit softcaps if any given ability is crit buffed too high. And so on.

I'd much prefer the model make you really think twice and *rarely* actually prodce BiS gear instead of being a no-brainer that you go and read up on EJ how to do right. Once we nail down sample weights for various gear levels, those weights will be able to produce a "How to reforge" guide that will be accurate in at least 90% of cases. That doesn't really seem like it fits with what they wanted it to be.

Pyriana · 07/26/10, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by StoicRoivaS

If passive damage gets toned down a bit (which is a directly stated goal) then white hit past the spell cap could be dumped for your best stat, white hit past the melee cap for your best stat, exp past the cap for your best stat, mastery past the (possible) cap, arp past the cap (in today's world), crit over the crit cap, your weakest stat for your best stat if it's better by a factor of (1 / conversion rate) which is very possible as shown by todays weights, and a slightly less obvious case of various softcaps on certain stats. For instance how casters frequently have haste softcaps they work around, we could feasibly be working around crit softcaps if any given ability is crit buffed too high. And so on.

I'd much prefer the model make you really think twice and *rarely* actually prodce BiS gear instead of being a no-brainer that you go and read up on EJ how to do right. Once we nail down sample weights for various gear levels, those weights will be able to produce a "How to reforge" guide that will be accurate in at least 90% of cases. That doesn't really seem like it fits with what they wanted it to be.

For mutilate right now, passive damage is indeed toned down and replaced by passive damage added by finishers, if I recall correctly one of my dps attempts on a dummy resulted in ~30% damage from white swings and a significant portion of the damage was from nature, via rupture and envenom increasing ip ticks. I actually want to make a dps spec for my level 80 test rogue to dps with a ton of haste like I have set on her because I want to compare what I can do @ 80 in cata with what I can do # 83 with my stats less than half of what they are @ 80 with the exception of AP.

Rosvall · 07/27/10, 1:23 AM

About reforging. Let's say you have 100 critical rating on an item. You're 24 rating from hit cap and 16 from expertise cap. And we'll also say it would be optimal to cap both those. Can you go from 100 crit -> 60 crit 40 hit -> 60 crit 24 hit 16 expertise? Or is it only one reforge per item?

Pyriana · 07/27/10, 2:32 AM

Only 1 reforge per item and only 1 stat.

Fnar · 07/27/10, 3:36 AM

The problem with reforging as I see it is that for mutilate at least the major stat that appears on our gear which we would not normally choose to take (ignoring crit-cap issues which should be going away) is ArPen, which has of course been removed. Therefore unless we are being bad rogues and rolling on things that shouldn't be ours, it's application is going to be limited to very specific points where we are tinkering around the hit or expertise cap as mentioned above.

Consider the current rogue T10 which will have agi, stamina and normally +3 other stats on a given piece.

Currently these +3 stats will be chosen from the following: Crit, Haste, Expertise, ArPen, AP, Hit
In cataclysm, ArPen and AP are going away and we gain mastery as a stat, which will leave the +3 to be chosen from Crit, Haste, Exp, Hit and Mastery. If you are hit and exp capped then an item with Crit, Haste and Mastery already on it will require 0 reforging (assuming we are not able to increase the value of a stat already on the gear's itemisation, which admittedly may or may not be the case) so I think that this ability is going to be of limited application.