Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 41

Pyriana · 07/27/10, 4:50 AM

Originally Posted by Fnar

The problem with reforging as I see it is that for mutilate at least the major stat that appears on our gear which we would not normally choose to take (ignoring crit-cap issues which should be going away) is ArPen, which has of course been removed. Therefore unless we are being bad rogues and rolling on things that shouldn't be ours, it's application is going to be limited to very specific points where we are tinkering around the hit or expertise cap as mentioned above.

Consider the current rogue T10 which will have agi, stamina and normally +3 other stats on a given piece.

Currently these +3 stats will be chosen from the following: Crit, Haste, Expertise, ArPen, AP, Hit
In cataclysm, ArPen and AP are going away and we gain mastery as a stat, which will leave the +3 to be chosen from Crit, Haste, Exp, Hit and Mastery. If you are hit and exp capped then an item with Crit, Haste and Mastery already on it will require 0 reforging (assuming we are not able to increase the value of a stat already on the gear's itemisation, which admittedly may or may not be the case) so I think that this ability is going to be of limited application.

over the course of ICC I've come across a lot of leather that was DE'd because it had hit/crit or expertise/crit etc, those could possibly surpass a native "best" stat item if it allows us to finagle our caps into a better position while giving us a modicum of our best stat as well or it might open up other gear opportunities. Basically this reforging is gonna make the gear mamba a lot more involved than it ever was for all of us.

Edit: I believe they are converting the AP to agi, basically, so you will only get 2 "green" stats on an item, for example this. now it's true that this is the equiv of an ilvl 200 item (I think), but I guess we'll see for sure what gear is gonna be like later on in the beta or maybe not till cata's released.

Sarvius · 07/27/10, 4:55 AM

A large number of previous posters have said things like "100 crit could go 60 crit+40 hit." Unless it's changed (hugely), neither concept is correct. My understanding based on blue posts is that when you reforge you convert *all* of a given stat, and it produces 50%, numerically, of the previous stat's value. So 100 crit becomes 50 hit.

Resultingly, reforging will almost definitely be of little use for rogues. Regardless of what stat is ideal, rogues are min/maxers for whom every single point is significant. There's certainly not going to be a stat that's twice as valuable as the others. Even if you're trying to fix hit/expertise numbers, it's very unlikely it will be worth losing 50% of a stat's value. Even the poison cap rarely doubles the EP of crit/haste currently and poison dps is going down significantly. You'd essentially get more EP from using an item that's one or two tiers old to get your caps, or just gem as we do currently. Reforging is probably more for healers, tanks, and some casting classes for whom crit is fairly mediocre. It doesn't seem to be blizz's intention that you'll reforge very frequently; it's just a nifty new mechanic that has no drawback to implementing.

Pyriana · 07/27/10, 4:59 AM

It is believed in the current system that the stats convert at a 1:1 ratio, so you don't actually lose any stats, but you convert it in a 40% chunk of stats, no more, no less.

Fnar · 07/27/10, 6:46 AM

The problem with doing it as a 40% chunk is that unless the 40% just happens to be the figure you need, this will be wasted for cappable stats.

e.g. If you are 26 below the expertise cap and 26 over the hit cap and your current gear has an item with 65 hit on it then you just hit the jackpot of reforging, otherwise, better luck next time.

However, if 2 uncappable stats like haste and crit (lets assume for now that these will be uncappable in cata and ignore any potential haste stepping with rupture ticks) have wildly differing MAEP then we can have a lot of fun swapping one for the other and min-maxing our gear choices.

I suppose this moves it away from being useful for tinkering with cappable stats and more useful for straighforward haste/crit/mastery stacking.

Giloran · 07/27/10, 11:02 AM

I thought I might contribute something to this discussion, so I did a little bit of testing in regards to how haste affects Deadly Poison and Garrote.

Note: I'm currently unable to transfer any characters to my beta-account, so all testing was done with my lvl 83 rogue. Thus, please don't pay that much attention to the numbers, the nature of these tests is qualitative only.

Deadly Poison

Haste	Duration	Ticks	Time between ticks
0 (0%)	11.99s	4	3s
1375 (14.52%)	12.14s	4	3s

Garrote

Haste	Duration	Ticks	Time between ticks
0 (0%)	17.85s	6	2.975s
1375 (14.52%)	18.248s	7	2.6s

So it seems that Garrote does indeed scale with haste, unlike Deadly Poison. Again, as I don't have access to a lvl 80 rogue in the beta, I can't really test how much rating is needed in order to achieve a 7th, 8th or 9th tick of Garrote, but I guess these tests might have been valuable nontheless.

==============
Deadly Poison:
==============

0 haste rating (0% at lvl 83)

7/27 15:17:57.776  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,5940,"Shiv",0x1,43,42,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:17:57.776  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,DEBUFF
7/27 15:17:57.971  SWING_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,81,80,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:00.978  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,310,309,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:03.950  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,310,309,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:06.939  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,311,310,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:09.761  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,311,310,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:09.761  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,DEBUFF


1375 haste rating (14.52% at lvl 83)

7/27 15:18:33.256  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,53908,"Speed",0x1,BUFF
7/27 15:18:33.256  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,53908,"Speed",0x1
7/27 15:18:34.730  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,5940,"Shiv",0x1,509,508,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:34.730  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,DEBUFF
7/27 15:18:37.849  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,461,460,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:40.821  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,461,460,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:43.677  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,712,711,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:46.866  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,712,711,8,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
7/27 15:18:46.866  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,2818,"Deadly Poison",0x8,DEBUFF
7/27 15:18:48.152  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,53908,"Speed",0x1,BUFF


=======
Garrote
=======

0 haste rating (0% at lvl 83)

7/27 15:30:45.789  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1
7/27 15:30:46.198  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,DEBUFF
7/27 15:30:46.198  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1330,"Garrote - Silence",0x1,DEBUFF
7/27 15:30:49.128  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,225,224,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:49.128  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1330,"Garrote - Silence",0x1,DEBUFF
7/27 15:30:52.017  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,225,224,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:55.018  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,224,223,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:58.055  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,225,224,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:31:01.080  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,225,224,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:31:04.048  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,224,223,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:31:04.048  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,DEBUFF


1375 haste rating (14.52% at lvl 83)


7/27 15:30:12.514  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1
7/27 15:30:12.910  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,DEBUFF
7/27 15:30:12.910  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1330,"Garrote - Silence",0x1,DEBUFF
7/27 15:30:15.585  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,953,952,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:15.781  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1330,"Garrote - Silence",0x1,DEBUFF
7/27 15:30:18.118  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,703,"Garrote",0x1,616,615,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:20.790  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,703,"Garrote",0x1,617,616,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:23.128  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,53908,"Speed",0x1,BUFF
7/27 15:30:23.328  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,703,"Garrote",0x1,617,616,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:25.933  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,703,"Garrote",0x1,953,952,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:28.559  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,703,"Garrote",0x1,616,615,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:31.158  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,703,"Garrote",0x1,617,616,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
7/27 15:30:31.158  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000005B428,"Giloran",0x511,0xF1307F9A0000403A,"Expert's Training Dummy",0xa28,703,"Garrote",0x1,DEBUFF

Docrev · 07/27/10, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sarvius

A large number of previous posters have said things like "100 crit could go 60 crit+40 hit." Unless it's changed (hugely), neither concept is correct. My understanding based on blue posts is that when you reforge you convert *all* of a given stat, and it produces 50%, numerically, of the previous stat's value. So 100 crit becomes 50 hit/

That theory (the 100 crit to 50 hit concept) dates from blue posts about one year ago (example: MMO-Champion BlueTracker | Reforging may be extremely confusing ). The most recent data we have is from an interview with Ghostcrawler a month ago, when he stated that it would function by converting 40% of one stat to another stat, hence the 100/0 -> 60/40 concept as described ( Blizzard's Greg Street on new systems in Cataclysm - Gameplanet Feature ). Until reforging is functional in the beta, this is the most recent data we have, so we should be operating under the assumption that this is how it works until otherwise stated by a blue or shown to work differently in the beta.

Belegûr · 07/27/10, 4:57 PM

Concerning reforging: has the possibility of "deforging" ever been suggested by Blizzard? I ask because until now, while we've always had some stats ahead of others, these values change, and it could be interesting to bring an item back to where it was.

To give a simple WotLK example: say you have Algalon's [Dark Matter]. Hit should be immensely valuable (unless you already have a ton of it), and crit has a rather low value. This is because of the 13% crit proc. Now, the loot tables are kind to you, and you swap it out for another trinket, such as the WFS or TAiaJ. Suddenly, your hit and crit values are, because you changed just one item, brutally changed. Can you un-forge an item you've forged to reflect this change, or are you permanently stuck with your forged item?

I understand blizzard has stated a "items get forged once" policy, but retroactive changes are a rather different matter, hence my question (in the case I missed a bit of info in a post; otherwise, the beta will eventually- hopefully - tell us).

Beepbeeps · 07/27/10, 7:02 PM

With such recent and drastic changes to the development of beta (read path of the titans removed, down to 31 pt talent trees), I would not at all be surprised if the reforging system is removed altogether. If it manages to stay, it could be another month or two before we even see it hit beta, and then it could still be removed if found clunky and unintuitive. It already seems too complex to be fun.

Edit: After reading that link to the recent dev post about reforging, it may go in. But if they

don’t want it to be a way to get the “Best Possible” items

I really don't see the point.

Rosvall · 07/28/10, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by Beepbeeps

With such recent and drastic changes to the development of beta (read path of the titans removed, down to 31 pt talent trees), I would not at all be surprised if the reforging system is removed altogether. If it manages to stay, it could be another month or two before we even see it hit beta, and then it could still be removed if found clunky and unintuitive. It already seems too complex to be fun.

Edit: After reading that link to the recent dev post about reforging, it may go in. But if they I really don't see the point.

I'll put it simple.

Haste > Crit

One item has 100 crit.
You reforge it to 60 crit 40 haste.

The item with 100 haste and 0 crit natively will of course be better for you, but this item has not dropped/is inaccessible for you. Which puts some fun in to reforging.

But I also wonder if you can restore your reforged items or if the reforging process is permanent. I really hope the former.

shaibatach · 07/28/10, 4:56 AM

As far as I understood, reforging was thought to be a tool to make items a little bit more attractive that otherwise would be disenchanted and to use this items as itermediate items, NOT to optimize endgear like gemming and enchanting do. Or did I missed the point?

Brotherbear · 07/28/10, 10:28 AM

Professions in Cata:

So I'm currently LW/JC for my professions. I have to admit I'm truly tempted to drop LW for Engineering, but at this point in the expansion I'm not sure there's much point.

How do the professions look in the beta? About the only thing I've seen on MMO-Champ is that Engineers will have a craftable 535 iLevel goggles that are equipable at level 80, but I'm not sure that alone would justify the profession swap.

Any thoughts from people in the beta? Or are professions not currently implemented to any meaningful degree?

Tinwhisker · 07/28/10, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Brotherbear

Any thoughts from people in the beta? Or are professions not currently implemented to any meaningful degree?

Most of what we know about professions at this point comes from data-mining; I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point.

Rambaral · 07/28/10, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Brotherbear

Professions in Cata:

So I'm currently LW/JC for my professions. I have to admit I'm truly tempted to drop LW for Engineering, but at this point in the expansion I'm not sure there's much point.

How do the professions look in the beta? About the only thing I've seen on MMO-Champ is that Engineers will have a craftable 535 iLevel goggles that are equipable at level 80, but I'm not sure that alone would justify the profession swap.

Any thoughts from people in the beta? Or are professions not currently implemented to any meaningful degree?

There were some datamined sockets that acted like BS sockets, and different gears/cogs that were similar to JC gems. Sort of like a combination of JC and BS, basically a way for engineers to get the passive stat bonuses that the other professions have in a simpler form that people can understand - rather than baking them into cooldowns like the haste gloves, bombs and so forth that you had to calculate the theoretical effectiveness of.

Whether or not that stays is another matter.

Beepbeeps · 07/28/10, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by shaibatach

As far as I understood, reforging was thought to be a tool to make items a little bit more attractive that otherwise would be disenchanted and to use this items as itermediate items, NOT to optimize endgear like gemming and enchanting do. Or did I missed the point?

My guess is permanent because if it is not permanent then players will take a lot of gear and reforge many pieces when a new one comes in. The point is to reforge very little, basically when a piece is going to be trashed and you could reforge it to fill a void until the one you really need drops.

If it's not permanent, reforging will become simple and complex at the same time. Simple meaning there will be no choice in the matter, you must reforge the item for it to be good for you. Complex meaning that you will likely have to do that with every item, and redo it with old items when you get a new item.

The whole point of talent tree redesign was to bring back some choices and flexibility. Changing rotations between single target and AOE for multiple classes was to force players to make choices. The reforging system that allows changes to be reverted does not give players the choice to reforge or not, you will have to do it, or you will be bad. (This is the choice to reforge, not the choice in stat allocation once you have chosen to reforge the item)

Now maybe the general think-tank, theorycrafting, or numbercrunching types here would rather spend their whole life reforging and itemizing every week, but I'm pretty sure 95% of the player base would not like that task (or the gold required to do it).

DarkKnight388 · 07/28/10, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Beepbeeps

My guess is permanent because if it is not permanent then players will take a lot of gear and reforge many pieces when a new one comes in. The point is to reforge very little, basically when a piece is going to be trashed and you could reforge it to fill a void until the one you really need drops.

If it is permanent, it will make it very complex though. Imagine that you just reforged an item to cap a stat i.e. exp and then an item with exp drops, which would be better if you weren't capped, but because of your reforged item it is not. This means that if you are min/maxing, you'll be 'forced' to hold on to your worse, old item, until you can replace another item which had exp on it. Or you will have to reforge several items with exp, just to try lower your exp to be able to replace your item, with the superior with exp item. (I hope this was just a tiny bit clear... it got a bit complicated in my head, my apologies.)
Ugh, I already get a headache just thinking of all the tinkering that will be needed to min/max items with reforging, if it is made permanent.
In my opinion it means it could get worse than gems, which are manageable because they can be replaced easily. Still if we will have both gems and reforging to tinker with, it will not be fun in the spreadsheets (okay, maybe it will be interesting to mess around with, but that's only for a small amount of people and not for the average joe).

Now that I am re-reading my own piece of text, and Beepbeeps': I see quite a large overlap, actually. So both will make it harder to get the max dps, but for different reasons. And I remember Blizzard stating they wanted to increase the clearness between the best and the average dps, while keeping the baseline high enough. All in all, reforging might just do the trick.