Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 42

Rambaral · 07/28/10, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by DarkKnight388

In my opinion it means it could get worse than gems, which are manageable because they can be replaced easily. Still if we will have both gems and reforging to tinker with, it will not be fun in the spreadsheets (okay, maybe it will be interesting to mess around with, but that's only for a small amount of people and not for the average joe).

The spreadsheets are already capable of handling it, since you can easily manipulate stats on gear, especially those effected by reforging. It might mean they will need to have the gear tab more accessible, but that's also something already possible.

As for making the reforging permanent, I think it will likely be able to be undone at the same cost you paid to do so, sort of like respeccing - maybe even to the point of increasing the cost every time you do so. I don't think Blizzard would expect you to make a change - possibly in error - then make it so you would have to get it to drop again or open a ticket to undo it.

Until it actually gets implemented, I'd say we can come up with a load of what-ifs, but that's not really productive.

Halbarad · 07/28/10, 6:13 PM

Good news from GC regarding Assassination Tier one Talents

"We are changing Improved Eviscerate to also affect Envenom, to give Assassination another attractive first tier talent for the endgame player."

A very welcome change indeed!

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> Break the dev silence [Rogue Issues]

Docrev · 07/28/10, 7:20 PM

If they leave Improved Eviscerate (or whatever they're now calling it) as a three point talent, this leaves us with a new issue. The most obvious place to free up a talent point would be Quickening or the utility talent of your choice. This would leave us with 40 points of DPS talents (30 in the tree, and 10 spread between combat and subtlety) and only one point of utility talents. Though if what Nalinaa observed about Vanish in the beta as of 11 days ago (it forcing you to stay stealthed for three seconds, it's on page 18 of this thread) remains true, Overkill really becomes a utility talent as it will only really be useful at the beginning of the fight or in situations such as the phase transitions, getting us back to two points of utility talents.

Tinwhisker · 07/28/10, 8:04 PM

Except that only having two talent points available for utility is an absolute failure when viewed with Blizzard's design goals for Cataclysm and the shrinking of talent trees. At a minimum we should have 4 and ideally we would have 6.

Docrev · 07/28/10, 8:08 PM

I never claimed that it was ideal. In fact, if you look at my post, you'll note that I stated that it was an issue. Really, out of the three rogue specs, assassination is the weakest in terms of availability of talent points for utility talents, despite having most of the best ones in its tree.

Pyriana · 07/29/10, 1:08 AM

Originally Posted by Docrev

If they leave Improved Eviscerate (or whatever they're now calling it) as a three point talent, this leaves us with a new issue. The most obvious place to free up a talent point would be Quickening or the utility talent of your choice. This would leave us with 40 points of DPS talents (30 in the tree, and 10 spread between combat and subtlety) and only one point of utility talents. Though if what Nalinaa observed about Vanish in the beta as of 11 days ago (it forcing you to stay stealthed for three seconds, it's on page 18 of this thread) remains true, Overkill really becomes a utility talent as it will only really be useful at the beginning of the fight or in situations such as the phase transitions, getting us back to two points of utility talents.

I believe someone said that overkill was fixed, I haven't actually tested it myself, however, and sadly we won't know with 100% certainty till we are doing fights that have zone wide combat (ie raids) because that may or may not change it.

edit: just tested it, they definitely fixed it so it applies immediately, dunno about in combat with a raid boss, though

Fnar · 07/29/10, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Docrev

If they leave Improved Eviscerate (or whatever they're now calling it) as a three point talent, this leaves us with a new issue. The most obvious place to free up a talent point would be Quickening or the utility talent of your choice. This would leave us with 40 points of DPS talents (30 in the tree, and 10 spread between combat and subtlety) and only one point of utility talents. Though if what Nalinaa observed about Vanish in the beta as of 11 days ago (it forcing you to stay stealthed for three seconds, it's on page 18 of this thread) remains true, Overkill really becomes a utility talent as it will only really be useful at the beginning of the fight or in situations such as the phase transitions, getting us back to two points of utility talents.

A much easier and interesting change would be to remove the killing blow requirement of deadly momentum, remove the extra crit and just give it a 25%/50% chance to refresh recuperate and SnD on the death of an enemy, that way we would have a fun and interesting talent with undoubted value in add heavy encounters and whilst soloing/levelling.

If they can just reduce imp evis to 2 points and make it affect envenom that would be an acceptable solution.

Perhaps the easiest thing would have been to move blackjack down to the first tier because it's a great 'utility' talent and one which would be an agreeable bit of first tier filler and would force (allow?) us to actually take a pure non-dps talent, which currently is not possible as mutilate unless you have a 'bad' spec or taking more than 31 points in the assasination tree, which feels broken.

Mazz · 07/29/10, 6:17 AM

Am I the only one that doubts Blizz keeping two talented passive +20% increases on the same ability? Granted, this is speculation but I am expecting the +20% from vile poisons to envenom being removed if they add that to imp eviscerate.

If, at that point, they'd move the +20% damage increase to regular poison damage into another dps talent that is unreachable for the other specs (say Seal Fate for instance) the tree looks workable. 4 filler talent points, just like combat.

edit: Just adding that I forgot about the functionality in vile poisons regarding FoK. This could be either dropped or also moved into another talent but it does make removing vile poisons less likely.

kindath · 07/29/10, 9:15 AM

Could anyone in the beta confirm that Recuperate also scales with haste? And if you have access to a paladin or warrior, could test if seal of vengeance (seal of truth now?) / deep wounds scales with haste? One being a non-rogue passive DoT and one being a non-rogue passive dot based off crit. Ignite might also be a good one to test, and possibly the earthliving proc.

Just trying to get a feel for what will be effected and what won't.

EDIT:
Supposedly:

Excellent question. It isn't a talent, but Seal of Truth (Seal of Vengeance) will tick faster with haste and
Judgement of the Wise's periodic mana energize will tick faster with haste.

Which strikes me as a little inconsistent. I wound understand deep wounds and ignite ticks not scaling with haste, since haste increases the rate at which they proc and causes them to stack up, but... for passive dots that tick for regular amounts of damage? Will deadly proccing instant be enough to keep us scaling well, or should I see deadly not benefiting from haste as a bug?

Rochmoninoff · 07/29/10, 10:25 AM

As long as people not in the beta are wishing for testing, here's my question:

Is there a way to get the per-target damage of FoK? Maybe stand just far enough away from the heroic dummy to hit it with FoK and no other ability?

I'm curious about a couple things:
1. How do thrown weapon stats translate into FoK damage (per target)
2. Which poison setup does the most damage (as assassin 31/3+/x? as combat x/31/x?)
3. Assuming at least one weapon using DP, is there a minimum time (20s? 30s? more?) where the mobs need to stay up before DP out-damages WP or IP? (would it make sense to weaponswap out the DP for AoE phases?)

Goal: estimate the FoK DPS on a per target basis, taking the new poison proc mechanics into account. This way it will be obvious when FoK is the best answer (what is that magic# of targets or fight time break point?).

I read the Rogue comment thread in the Blizzard Cataclsym Forum and noted that
a) it was full of FoK QQ
b) nearly all these comments dated back to Alpha
Obviously the spell has been completely overhauled. But if we reset our expectations, it could still be a useful tool in the right situations.

Nitroxx · 07/29/10, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Halbarad

Good news from GC regarding Assassination Tier one Talents

"We are changing Improved Eviscerate to also affect Envenom, to give Assassination another attractive first tier talent for the endgame player."

A very welcome change indeed!

World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> Break the dev silence [Rogue Issues]

This is great news indeed not having to waste 2 points in the first tier on talents you either wont use or arent intended for a pve raider. I am betting though that either it is a reduced % of damage increased. I can`t really see them just giving us a 20% damage increase to our main finisher. Especially if they are trying to get use to throw rupture into the mix, this change would seem to insure that not happening.

• Aldriana · 07/29/10, 1:29 PM

It's also worth noting that the talent needn't be a direct buff to envenom damage at all - it could increase the duration or potency of the buff instead. I suspect it probably will be just +% damage, but it's worth keeping the other options in mind.

Fnar · 07/29/10, 1:29 PM

It may not even be a buff to the damage of envenom, extending the duration of the envenom buff may actually encourage us to use rupture to avoid clipping.

edit: damn you Aldriana

Pyriana · 07/29/10, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by kindath

Could anyone in the beta confirm that Recuperate also scales with haste?

It does not

Originally Posted by Rochmoninoff

As long as people not in the beta are wishing for testing, here's my question:

Is there a way to get the per-target damage of FoK? Maybe stand just far enough away from the heroic dummy to hit it with FoK and no other ability?

I'm curious about a couple things:
1. How do thrown weapon stats translate into FoK damage (per target)
2. Which poison setup does the most damage (as assassin 31/3+/x? as combat x/31/x?)
3. Assuming at least one weapon using DP, is there a minimum time (20s? 30s? more?) where the mobs need to stay up before DP out-damages WP or IP? (would it make sense to weaponswap out the DP for AoE phases?)

Goal: estimate the FoK DPS on a per target basis, taking the new poison proc mechanics into account. This way it will be obvious when FoK is the best answer (what is that magic# of targets or fight time break point?).

I read the Rogue comment thread in the Blizzard Cataclsym Forum and noted that
a) it was full of FoK QQ
b) nearly all these comments dated back to Alpha
Obviously the spell has been completely overhauled. But if we reset our expectations, it could still be a useful tool in the right situations.

The way FoK works now, you apply poison to your throwing dagger and it uses the speed of the dagger as a cooldown for FoK, in my experimentation with it, it seems that if you had sufficient energy regen and the targets your're FoKing are living long enough, deadly poison is the way to go, you get the dp ticks plus ip procs (if you have ip on your mh) I did not however test this with poison on both mh and oh, I only had ip on mh, it's worth noting that FoK is only 1 hit now, and the damage it does is very small compared to live (200-300 dmg with a [Gluth's Fetching Knife] on a heroic target dummy), the poison damage however is still the same.

This however doesn't proc wound poison currently, and an oddity, if you use 2 daggers with IP it OCCASIONALLY procs both ip but usually just procs one (example in pic), further testing will probably be needed but I have a feeling this will change because it seems they don't want melee to be the powerhouse AoEing classes they were in wotlk.

Edit: this was on a level 60 target dummy to avoid any possible hit issues with IP and FoK

Sarvius · 07/30/10, 2:36 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

It's also worth noting that the talent needn't be a direct buff to envenom damage at all - it could increase the duration or potency of the buff instead. I suspect it probably will be just +% damage, but it's worth keeping the other options in mind.

It's also quite possible that they'll simply move the damage buff from vile poisons into improved evis instead. It does seem like a better fit for the boost and vile poisons is still a perfectly powerful talent without the envenom component. Its current implementation is perhaps overbudgeted.