Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 49

StoicRoivaS · 08/06/10, 8:15 PM

I see what you mean, but I don't think they would keep something like that hidden. Really I'd just expect things to be as normal until we hit raid tier number two, and then a blue post pops up and says "You guys may notice something is slightly off, raid bosses in this tier now have 10 more levels of defense" or whatever.

kindath · 08/06/10, 9:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vanadi

This is just an assumption, but they might give backstab the shred treatment and lower the energy cost to 40.

Backstab already got its base damage increased from 150% to 175%, I doubt they'd do more. (especially not more energy reduction, since that would make backstab practically free for sub.)

Since backstab already hits for roughly the same amount of damage as mutilate on live, with both DW spec getting traded for assassin's resolve and the base damage increase, plus cheap cheap energy cost below 35% and a more even distribution of combo point generation... yeah, it's going to be a nice talent.

I see what you mean, but I don't think they would keep something like that hidden. Really I'd just expect things to be as normal until we hit raid tier number two, and then a blue post pops up and says "You guys may notice something is slightly off, raid bosses in this tier now have 10 more levels of defense" or whatever.

I was under the impression from what I read that the bosses would simply be higher level. As in, first tier of raid has maybe 85 elite bosses, then 86 elite bosses for the next, etc. Who knows where it would start and where it would end.

Side effect of that, they'll probably have to rebalance crushing blows and quite possibly spell hit and glancing blows.

Tinwhisker · 08/06/10, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

I really hope they will allow us to see by how much more hit/crit/dodge/whatever is required for the later tier bosses, and not make it a hidden (de)buff. Not providing us with this information will only result in a nightmare for both theorycrafters and min/maxers as they are trying to get the best out of their gear for a progression fight.

GC has a post somewhere that I can't find at the moment that says they would like to put it in the UI somehow but at the time they didn't know how they would do it. No idea if they're still lacking an idea though.

Sarvius · 08/07/10, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by kindath

I was under the impression from what I read that the bosses would simply be higher level. As in, first tier of raid has maybe 85 elite bosses, then 86 elite bosses for the next, etc. Who knows where it would start and where it would end.

You're on the right track for what they might have to rebalance, but if they're going to need to dynamically change the value of adding levels and avoidance/crit/etc then why bother not just doing it manually without it revolving around levels. For rogues in particular it would be quite a lot of adjustment between raid tiers since we work around 3 different caps (technically 4) and all of them are pretty vital. I think it would be far easier for blizz to simply post that each new tier of content will increase bosses' chance to be missed/resist by 3% or whatever.

Fnar · 08/07/10, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Sarvius

You're on the right track for what they might have to rebalance, but if they're going to need to dynamically change the value of adding levels and avoidance/crit/etc then why bother not just doing it manually without it revolving around levels. For rogues in particular it would be quite a lot of adjustment between raid tiers since we work around 3 different caps (technically 4) and all of them are pretty vital. I think it would be far easier for blizz to simply post that each new tier of content will increase bosses' chance to be missed/resist by 3% or whatever.

This is, to my mind the only sensible option. Increasing the boss level would be bad due to crushing/glancing blows, just making them harder to hit/crit makes perfect sense.

Fnar · 08/07/10, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Rochmoninoff

Two quick questions:

1. I see Elusiveness being discussed as a DPS talent for Sub.
This is true for Assassin (procs Overkill)
And this used to be true for Subt (Master of Subtlety)
But MoS is no longer in the Subt tree, so is this still a DPS talent? (I guess you could get another Ambush out of it...)

2. I saw some discussion of picking up Camouflage for the move speed increase in Assassin specs.
But Quickening give the same move speed increase in and out of stealth (so it's better, right). Also it gives the healing buff. And most important: the move speed increases don't stack. So other than the quicker stealth (PVP) what's the benefit of Camouflage for Assassin?

I could be mistaken, but I'm sure that if i have 2/2 fleet footed and am specced into camoflage (on live, not beta), they do seem to stack as i'll be moving in stealth almost as quickly as non-stealthed group members.

Neckface · 08/07/10, 12:06 PM

To list of issues I would add that Deadly Momentum is of use almost exclusively for leveling, being too unreliable for any sort of group play, which effectively means that for level 85s with points in Assassination there will be no choice. (Well, I suppose it's a choice between 0/3/2 and 0/2/3, but not really...).

Comparable talents, such as Butchery, have a secondary benefit that is more generally useful. The Priest equivalent was removed completely. Choices could be:
1) Rewrite the talent so that it is more generally useful ("When your current target dies...")
2) Add a secondary benefit ("In addition, your Slice and Dice and Expose Armor are extended by 3 seconds.")
3) Get rid of it completely and move Quickening (or something else) to Tier 1.

Zereo · 08/07/10, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Fnar

I could be mistaken, but I'm sure that if i have 2/2 fleet footed and am specced into camoflage (on live, not beta), they do seem to stack as i'll be moving in stealth almost as quickly as non-stealthed group members.

I'm pretty sure that means they don't stack, because I'm spec'd into Fleet Footed on live, and I move in stealth almost as quickly as non-stealthed group members now.

StoicRoivaS · 08/07/10, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Neckface

To list of issues I would add that Deadly Momentum is of use almost exclusively for leveling, being too unreliable for any sort of group play, which effectively means that for level 85s with points in Assassination there will be no choice. (Well, I suppose it's a choice between 0/3/2 and 0/2/3, but not really...).

Comparable talents, such as Butchery, have a secondary benefit that is more generally useful. The Priest equivalent was removed completely. Choices could be:
1) Rewrite the talent so that it is more generally useful ("When your current target dies...")
2) Add a secondary benefit ("In addition, your Slice and Dice and Expose Armor are extended by 3 seconds.")
3) Get rid of it completely and move Quickening (or something else) to Tier 1.

I always got the impression that they were okay with strictly leveling talents, but I guess I never realized that similar things of other classes were either better or removed. I'll add it as a point of consideration. Backtrack link is here.

Neckface · 08/07/10, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Zereo

I'm pretty sure that means they don't stack, because I'm spec'd into Fleet Footed on live, and I move in stealth almost as quickly as non-stealthed group members now.

I started to post, but figured I should go test before I run my mouth off.

I just specced a rogue on one account with Fleet Footed and Camouflage, and another rogue on another account with only Camouflage. Put both in stealth, and the second rogue on autofollow. First rogue outran 2nd rogue pretty quickly.

The way I've heard it explained is that Camouflage isn't a bonus, it's a reduction in penalty. So it's not stacking, it's multiplication.

sp00n · 08/07/10, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by Neckface

The way I've heard it explained is that Camouflage isn't a bonus, it's a reduction in penalty. So it's not stacking, it's multiplication.

At least from the spell effects this seems to be plausible. Fleet Footed is a 'Apply Aura: Increase Run Speed %' as expected, whereas Camouflage is a 'Apply Aura: Add Modifier - Flat (23)'. Thus, they are not the same type, so they don't explicitly exclude each other.

Underz · 08/08/10, 8:35 AM

Without meaning to detract slightly, but a recent post from Ghostcrawler here, interested me.

He says 2 things regarding damage, the fact Blizzard want all Rogue specs to be "as close together as possible". But I was reading this with the Twitter dev chat in mind which notably said that "Subtlety is probably going to end up as the lowest-damage of the three rogue specializations to make up for its superior mobility". Given that the question asked was in a PVP context. Can we assume Subtlety is going to be on par now? I think so.

Fnar · 08/08/10, 9:47 AM

We're going to make Dirty Tricks baseline.

We still think the mobility between Subtlety and the other trees is a little far apart. This is something we want to address.

We also think Subtlety's damage against heavy armored targets is probably a little low and we're looking at that as well.

However, as we said in the Twitter dev chat, if you had a tree with Assassination's burst or Combat's timers *and* Shadowstep and Prep, why would you play anything else in PvP? In PvE, we want to get all 3 rogue specs to be as close together as possible. But part of that involves Rupture and Honor Among Thieves, which are just more potent in PvE than PvP. In PvP, we think it's fair that Subtlety does less toe-to-toe damage given that the tree has so many advantages when not toe-to-toe.

The blue post in question.

Dirty tricks becoming baseline is a sensible move. Increased mobility for combat and assassination sounds promising, probably in the form of a shorter cooldown on sprint, 90 seconds would be much more like it, 3 minutes is ridiculous, GC admits that they feel 3 minutes is a bit high so fingers crossed

As far as subtlety being on par, it should be, but perhaps not in the form of pure damage, the spec has a lot of tools and as a trade-off i would expect about 5% less damage, so noticeable but not gamebreaking

Underz · 08/08/10, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Fnar

As far as subtlety being on par, it should be, but perhaps not in the form of pure damage, the spec has a lot of tools and as a trade-off i would expect about 5% less damage.

Arguable. Let's look at these tools. Presuming by tool you mean anything non-dps related.

#Elusiveness, the cloak on a 30 second cooldown, a good help. But the vanish half of that talent is effectively makes vanish a DPS cooldown.

#Shadowstep, similar to above, with the 30% damage increase. This is effectively a DPS cooldown rather than a "tool". The opportunity is there to ofcourse, but again, probably not a "tool" in a pure sense of the word.

#Preparation, again, effectively a DPS cooldown. Not a "use when needed". Granted, it can come in use, but I wouldn't call it a "tool" given the DPS it will give.

#Hemorrhage, definitely a tool. But with the whole Blizzard new-era-mantras and homogenization. Whether or not the DPS of the spec should be punished because it brings this is another thing.

#Honor Among Thieves, same reasons as above.

Whereas if we look at Combat

#Improved Recuperate (probably the best filler), whether or not Recuperate is going to be major in Rogue raids remains to be seen, never the less. I'd say this is a tool in the sense of the word.

#Another filler in Imp Kick, Imp Sprint or Imp Gouge, not really a "tool", but alot more of one than most of the said Subtlety talents and there are 3 of them to choose from.

#Savage Combat, same reasons apply here as with Hemmorhage.

#Blade Flurry, arguably a "tool". All that matters is bosses, really. So Blade Flurry is fab for trash especially with its new reworked design.

Danzir · 08/08/10, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Fnar

The blue post in question.

Dirty tricks becoming baseline is a sensible move. Increased mobility for combat and assassination sounds promising, probably in the form of a shorter cooldown on sprint, 90 seconds would be much more like it, 3 minutes is ridiculous, GC admits that they feel 3 minutes is a bit high so fingers crossed

Cutting the cooldown on sprint in half will not do much for rogue mobility, in the pvp sense if you just shorten the cooldown, imho. It needs a snare/slow/cc removal component along with it - built in, ala the combat talent. Or they can just do what every sensible rogue feels is neccessary - give Shadowstep as a base ability (sans any special attributes outside of subt), and reduce sprints' cooldown. Throwing a bone, via a reduced sprint cooldown, is not what rogue mobility needs.