That's pretty much already in one of my bullets I do believe, unless you'd like me to word it more specifically, but I think they get the point. On that topic though, if anyone with beta access would like to post it on the official forms, and see what some other rogues have to add, they have my blessing to do so. I wouldn't just paste it in a giant quote block and say "This is from all of EJ fix it now" but reposting it as "your" list and asking the rest of the beta for additions or addendums may bring some more ideas up. This subset of the community is surely biased against the more serious side of things, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if there's something a little more fundamental I forgot.

Edit: "The application of vanish as a dps cooldown, especially in conjunction with the number of points subtlety spends to buff either vanish or ambush, feels slightly awkward."

The random proc enabling ambush would be fine and dandy, however they just changed shadowstep so that it is not used on cooldown and instead only during vanish/shadow dance, with a random proc it would be back to being a dps cooldown and not a mobility/switching cooldown, a better solution for the "random proc" thing might be that it makes your next hemo cost no energy, or do 3x damage or something like that, but hemo would have to be a bit more favorable for daggers, because as it currently is it favors non daggers a bit, doesn't it?

I think Hemo is actually still slightly pro-dagger in it's current form, but even if it wasn't... so? I don't see that there's necessarily anything wrong with a sub variant that uses sword/axe/whatever and Hemo as it's primary combo point generator - particularly since you can now Ambush with any weapon. I'm pretty sure it works out to be marginally inferior to a Backstab-based build right now, but if it could be tweaked to be a bit more competitive it could provide an interesting solution to the "is Hemo worth taking" debate.

Would either require Hemo be added to Opportunity, or some other tweaking of the tree. Such as more opportunities to use Ambush. (/cough proc /cough)

The nice thing about a hemo build is that you could take Ruthlessness instead of Puncturing Wounds, AND you'd generate 33% more combo points from Hemo than you would with BS. So a lot more finishers. Which in turn would also give Rupture a higher refresh rate.

You'd have to find the exact quote, but I'm pretty sure their objection to Backstab had to do with the fact that it was high damage and and high energy, and thus slow to generate combo points, meaning it sort of sidestepped the notion of rogue cycles - you let Backstab do all your yellow damage, kept SnD up, and that was that.

Hence, I don't think it's an accident that the "Backstab" trees feature significant reductions to the energy cost of Backstab - Sub pays 40, and Assassination only 30. Moreover, Assassination also gets bonus CP through Seal Fate - your combo point generation actually goes *up* when you switch to Backstab rather than down.

In short: Combat Daggers *was* a terrible spec, due to structural problems with Backstab. However, Blizzard has made a clear effort to *fix* those issues in the trees that use daggers, such that it is again a viable and interesting combo point builder.

I still think that Shadow Dance isn't the real issue here. During all the time I played Sub HaT was the talent around I built and optimized the spec. It was like Assassination where you got the needed 15% dmg through HfB when you specced for it. Shadow Dance was merely a utility talent. And to be honest I currently use it just like that (except the occasional Premed+Garrote to get some quick 5CP).

I find it interesting that so much time is spent on discussing how this Shadow Dance mechanic could be improved to maybe eventually be a true DPS cooldown, when it's clearly a utility CD and the lack of Sub damage is originated in the nerf(s) to HaT.
Consider swapping Shadow Dance with HaT in the talent tree and adjusting HaT to 1 point. If you then go forward and adjust HaT slightly to really be a talent worth taking (for example the old 1sec CD per group member), the whole tree would be fixed.

I know that Blizzard stated that they don't want an ultimate talent that brings too much damage, but they did it (and do it even worse in cata) with fury warriors and most importantly I think that they highly overrate HaT in all its eralier and current incarnations.

Undoubtly HaT was overpowered at times but even after numerous nerfs it was unavoidable to just waste so many CPs because of so many reasons, be it encounter mechanic, human reaction time, the unpredictable nature of HaT or one of the many other reasons that made this spec extremely different and fun to play.
Even now you waste CPs because you sometimes wait for the 5th CP to pop up through HaT to finish, but noone in your group crits. To avoid energy capping you hemo and finish, but most probably HaT will procc during your GCD of hemo or in the worst case you see the proccing HaT CP just before your Hemo lands because you already hit the Hemo button.


That said, I think Shadow Dance shouldn't be the place to change for enhanced playstyle. All the proposals seemed merely like bandaids. HaT should again be the focus of the tree to revive the old gameplay that felt so different from the two other specs.

The old gameplay that revolved around just spamming one button, you mean? Thank you, but I'll pass.

It's cooldown abilities that should dictate how interesting and dynamic a spec's playstyle is, not static group-dependent ones. You pay attention to your procs and consumables and external buffs like Bloodlust or Hysteria to couple them with your cooldowns, not with your usual rotations. HaT already defines Subtlety as a tree, there's no need to make it into a be-all-end-all talent. What needs attention is the spec's signature mechanic of stealth moves woven into standard rotations, and its sole cooldown ability that is Shadow Dance.

That's because HaT is mighty fine as it is. It has a function to perform, and it does it well. The function is to provide us with a resource to use: Assassination has Seal Fate, Ruthlessness, and Venomous Wounds. Combat has Vitality and Combat Potency. Subtlety doesn't provide any extra energy regen per se, instead giving us a constant influx of free combo points, saving our energy that way. Thus it does define the playstyle, but it doesn't give you anything interesting to do beside your normal rotation.

And regardless of whether HaT or ShD is the defining talent of Subtlety, where in the tree ShD is, or whether it's a dps or utility talent, the problem remains that it is poorly designed in that it manages to be both GCD capped and energy starved.

There's also the problem that the Shadow Dance bar doesn't even switch anywhere near fast enough. I've frequently built combo points on a target, hit SD and got off a Kidney Shot before the bar has switched. (I keep my stuns on the same bar position for stealth and non-stealth.) That 6 seconds is more like 5. Too see what I'm talking about, practice stealthing and cheap shoting as fast as you can on a target dummy.

Honestly, I really like the idea of shadow dance just being permanent stance. Maybe it removes the positional requirements from our abilities and/or other effects. It would make sub focus on stealth and allow more of its talents like to be of use all the time instead of just in stealth. As far as ambush burst being a problem, it would still be very limited by energy requirements. Stealth is really what sub is about despite what the devs say about it being focused on finishers.

Yes, macroing Cheap Shot to ShD would work, as long as ShD is for sure off of GCD, and you had enough energy. Otherwise you would have to double-tap that macro keybind in order to set off both abilities. In that case, it just might be more effective for most to just macro using modifiers Kidney Shot and Cheap Shot to a single keybind and place that macro on all tree spell bars. The stealth, nostealth, and shadow dance.