Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 59

Zerix · 08/21/10, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Macnaaria

It wasn't a bug as much as it was just the way it was. Any combo points left on a mob when dead were usable for quite a while. I used it strategically all the time when moving from mob to mob. It sucked when they "fixed" it.

Apologies if this has been mentioned specifically, I sifted through the thread and didn't see anything, but combo points are definitely remaining on dead mobs and are usable with both SnD and Recuperate. It acts just like it did back in Molten Core when you use to chain SnD off dead trash mobs. If this stays it's going to be VERY helpful for leveling, getting Improved Recuperate and Quick Recovery for leveling up as combat will be exceptional for questing.

Next, has there been any consensus on what to gem right before Cataclysm comes out? I was going to assume Agility for the added AP/Crit/Armor/Dodge it provides, it seems like the logical solution now that Armor Penetration gems have been turned into +Critical Strike Rating.

Pyriana · 08/21/10, 5:55 PM

Combo points on self would lead to horrendous mouseover pvp macros and focus macros, imagine autoattacking one melee to shut them down (crippling poison and wound or whatever) while doing the brunt of your finisher damage on another melee. The implications of having combo points on yourself would not only make the quality life of rogue pvp go vastly down, but the quality of life of everyone around, face it, rogues are not ele shamans, we are not designed for hard switches, but as a sub spec rogue with hat, we very easily could be by building cp on someone and switching we can build up some serious damage with rupture and evisc spamming after etc. In fact, we would be the new CoI spamming DK's of Cataclysm, just deadly throw focus and lock down any melee you want.

Yes it would be pretty nice in pve but it would make pvp seriously annoying, consider also the fact that you can apply poisons with deadly throw and throwing now, as well (whatever is on your throwing dagger). You can now cripple someone from 30 yards, or pre wound poison them, or even pre deadly poison them, or keep mind numbing up on a caster in pvp.

Edit: typos

Redeye · 08/21/10, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Pyriana

Combo points on self would lead to horrendous mouseover pvp macros and focus macros, imagine autoattacking one melee to shut them down (crippling poison and wound or whatever) while doing the brunt of your finisher damage on another melee.

Then let it give you the combo point(s) from a combo move only if you perform it on the mob you're targeting.

The implications of having combo points on yourself would not only make the quality life of rogue pvp go vastly down, but the quality of life of everyone around, face it, rogues are not ele shamans, we are not designed for hard switches, but as a sub spec rogue with hat, we very easily could be by building cp on someone and switching we can build up some serious damage with rupture and evisc spamming after etc.

That's a lot of combo points you're talking about. It takes exactly the same time to accumulate them as it does now, the only difference is that *one* finishing move you can pull off right after you switch. Is it really that gamebreaking, especially in the Cata environment of high health/high durability?

In fact, we would be the new CoI spamming DK's of Cataclysm, just deadly throw focus and lock down any melee you want.

Give DT a cooldown, then.

What I'm trying to say is that balancing a rogue's performance after such a change in the class's mechanics would hardly be difficult. There's only a handful of issues that would need to be looked into, and none of them is a huge mountain of a problem. In fact, they are all pretty basic.

Pyriana · 08/21/10, 6:25 PM

And what about rupture juggling? If cata is all about long fights and damage over time, what happens when you're doing 2's or 3's and keeping rupture up on 2-3 people? HAT alone gives enough cp (assuming a crit every 2 seconds) to juggle 2 ruptures. That will easily put the healer behind in the new model of "heals aren't as potent". Admittedly this could probably be done without self combo points but that would make it considerably easier.

I think a better solution would be reducing the cooldown of redirect to say 30 seconds instead of 60.

Redeye · 08/21/10, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Pyriana

And what about rupture juggling? If cata is all about long fights and damage over time, what happens when you're doing 2's or 3's and keeping rupture up on 2-3 people? HAT alone gives enough cp (assuming a crit every 2 seconds) to juggle 2 ruptures. That will easily put the healer behind in the new model of "heals aren't as potent". Admittedly this could probably be done without self combo points but that would make it considerably easier.

The same could be said about having DP stacks on two people at the same time - which already happens on a regular basis if you're doing arenas as Assassination.

I think a better solution would be reducing the cooldown of redirect to say 30 seconds instead of 60.

That would require as much consideration and balancing as perma-sticky combo points. The issues would be exactly the same - hard switch damage, etc. - they would just differ slightly in magnitude. So why go half the way when you can go all of it?

I honestly can't understand why people insist on demonising the idea of self-sticky combo points as overpowered while the only things it would change in gameplay (and I believe we're now talking exclusively about pvp balance) would be the single finisher on switches and the odd situational DT/KS.

• Aldriana · 08/21/10, 6:51 PM

To be clear: I don't think anyone is demonizing the idea, merely discussing its merits and discussing why Blizzard may not have made the switch (when they clearly could have). After all, these aren't really forums for vocally advocating one's favorite changes, it's for discussing the merits of ideas. And I do think there are legitimate concerns that my explain why Blizzard hasn't made the swap.

In short: consider decaf.

Redeye · 08/21/10, 7:07 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

To be clear: I don't think anyone is demonizing the idea, merely discussing its merits and discussing why Blizzard may not have made the switch (when they clearly could have). After all, these aren't really forums for vocally advocating one's favorite changes, it's for discussing the merits of ideas. And I do think there are legitimate concerns that my explain why Blizzard hasn't made the swap.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not doing anything else than trying to discuss ideas. I'm certainly not making demands. I'm also not a revolutionist of any sort, the idea of self-sticky combo points has been around, as you said, since the very start, and has been discussed endlessly; I just thought a beta of a new expansion would be a good environment to revive the discussion and cast it against the current state of game mechanics. By the way, I'd really like to know the developers' stance on the matter and their reasons for not having modernised our class's gameplay in any way since vanilla.

In short: consider decaf.

Haha, spot on

Garren · 08/21/10, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Redeye

I'd really like to know the developers' stance on the matter and their reasons for not having modernised our class's gameplay in any way since vanilla.

While it is commonly accepted that developers read these forums, they do not actually have a voice here. You might have better luck posting on the official forums.

As for my two cents on the matter, I actually enjoy it as a limitation of that class. As a general rule, losing CP on targets as they die is at it's most punitive when FoK spam is at it's strongest. Which is to say that the targets that die the fastest tend to come in large packs intended for AoE. Just because other classes can swap targets easily doesn't mean we have to.

pfooti · 08/22/10, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Zerix

Apologies if this has been mentioned specifically, I sifted through the thread and didn't see anything, but combo points are definitely remaining on dead mobs and are usable with both SnD and Recuperate. It acts just like it did back in Molten Core when you use to chain SnD off dead trash mobs. If this stays it's going to be VERY helpful for leveling, getting Improved Recuperate and Quick Recovery for leveling up as combat will be exceptional for questing.

I noticed this as well, while running around questing in Hyjal. Between combo points being on dead mobs and deadly momentum refreshing my SnD/Recuperate, I can roll a 5-stack of each more or less indefinitely while grinding mobs. It is spectacular. With my mediocre 232 gear at 80, recuperate was ticking for 1400 or so (talented both into imp recuperate and quickening for the level-up grind), and was providing the 6% damage redux from improved recuperate.

Overall, I stayed at full health while single-mob grinding, without having to juggle stuns as I do in regular LK mob grinding. The only trick is making sure you keep finding mobs to kill to keep the streak going.

Pyriana · 08/22/10, 4:38 PM

Combo points on dead mobs was in the patch notes at some point, they don't stay on the mob till the body decays like back in 1.0, but they do stick around for something like 10-15 seconds. (I've never timed them.)

Ratek · 08/22/10, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by Redeye

The current incarnation of HaT only procs off melee and ranged abilities - which I understand means yellow physical crits. That drastically lowers its combo point generation in small groups and in pvp.

I would tend to agree with you if it weren't for the tendency to not really use any one term for ranged physical (see, even I have to be specific). And especially in this case. Ranged here clearly means 'damaging attacks from afar'. While magic could be used, that would then include healing, which I'm sure Blizzard doesn't want to include in this. Of course it could also be 'damaging magical attacks' but ranged is just easier (and cutting little corners like this isn't unusual), not to mention ranged would be required anyway for ranged physical attacks.

Tinwhisker · 08/22/10, 5:46 PM

Presumably, they're also not done with combo points. The rogue preview in the same sentance that talked about using SnD and Recuperate off dead mobs also noted a UI update to show how many combo points we had floating around (e.g. left on our last target or some dead mob). We've not seen that yet.

Personally, after having played the beta with the default UI for a while, I find the new larger default UI resource monitors for things like Holy Power to be much nicer than our outdated and small CP counters. I'm hoping when they add the new counter they fix the old counter as well to make it much easier to see.

Corrahn · 08/24/10, 4:30 PM

I find it strange that Slice and Dice was included in the power auras that were listed on mmo champion:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...layeffects.jpg

The latest build introduced a VERY interesting feature to the game: a built-in PowerAuras. If you are unfamiliar with the mod, it is mostly used to watch and warn players when a spell proc is available and the game clearly reached the point where it's fairly hard (or just annoying) to play at high level without a mod like this.

Blizzard eventually agreed that watching your buff bar isn't really fun and a new icon appears on your character when situational spells such as Art of War are available.

In my opinion, if Slice and Dice was included with power auras it would not be very helpful for us UNLESS they plan on changing the mechanic in a future build. From what I can tell, these have been data mined and are not actually active in the current cataclysm beta build though. This is all just speculation on my part, but just seeing it listed there made me very curious.

Minifridge · 08/24/10, 6:12 PM

Not sure how customizable this built in PowerAuras is, but the only way I can see that being useful at all is if perhaps the effect started blinking or pulsing when SnD has, say, 5-6 seconds left. And even if it did do that, I'd still find it rather annoying to have a distracting glowing lightning bolt in the middle of my screen while SnD is up... which is the entire fight.

Ratek · 08/24/10, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by Minifridge

Not sure how customizable this built in PowerAuras is, but the only way I can see that being useful at all is if perhaps the effect started blinking or pulsing when SnD has, say, 5-6 seconds left. And even if it did do that, I'd still find it rather annoying to have a distracting glowing lightning bolt in the middle of my screen while SnD is up... which is the entire fight.

At least positioning will be possible. There are several classes with more than one proc per spec (though the only shown is Frost Mage). Having both on the character would be a bit of a blunder, especially for new players who have very little knowledge of the game.