Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 6

Chenz · 04/13/10, 12:18 PM

Enemies who are outside the cloud will find themselves unable to target units inside the cloud with single-target abilities.

Is there any statement to backup the claim that spells cast from melee range will ignore the LoS that the cloud creates? In my mind, it would be perfectly possible to have the melee group within melee range and inside the cloud, while the boss itself is outside of the cloud, effectively making the players out of line of sight. Of course, it remains to be tested.

Brotherbear · 04/13/10, 12:44 PM

I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I'm discussing it here is because I'm trying to see if I missed something in my interpretation of the description. For PvE purposes anyway.

Forget big hits on the boss. The real question is how this will interact with single abilities that currently either target ranged (Malleable Goo) or a random person (Defile). And while we have only current fight dynamics to compare it to, I think it's fairly safe to assume "the boss targets someone other than the tank to do something bad to" is something we will see again in the expansion.

So either:

a) This ability prevents the boss from using single target abilities on people in smoke cloud who are at range. Which is amazing and I just don't see that making it to live unless Blizzard really wants us to be able to control fights more than we do currently.

b) This ability forces the boss to run into melee with whomever is under it in order to use Ability X. Which would be kind of terrible since it would play havok with placement and threat.

c) Bosses are immune to this ability. In which case it's of limited but not amazing value on trash pulls. Which would be nice, but not exactly game breaking or defining.

Right now my feeling mirrors Aldriana's. When I saw Tricks of the Trade I was blown away. Now admitedly some of that was due to Sunwell and trying to tank the adds on Muru before the nerf, but the fact remained that I was really excited about the potential to really help control threat. The dps benefit turned out to have a much larger impact on our decision making, but the fact remains that it was amazing on paper and didn't change. All the changes I've seen are pretty exciting for PvP, but only smoke bomb has the potential to be really powerful in PvE, and I just don't see them letting it be that good.

We shall see of course.

Rochmoninoff · 04/13/10, 12:50 PM

The wording of Smoke Bomb was confusing, but further clarifying statements of Smoke Bomb indicate it is a portable LoS barrier.
Enemy casters inside the ring can target normally.
Enemy caster outside the ring can attack inside ring with AoE abilities.

The PVP applications are many.
The PVE applications are few.
And even the PVP applications me see nerfs (i.e. enemy casters may be able to target friendly targets inside ring).

Personally I'm very jazzed about this ability since I mostly run 5-mans and PVP.
But I imagine that raiders will be very disappointed with this level 85 ability which has so little raid utility*.

*Note that even if certain encounters in Cataclysm make Smoke Bomb very useful they will be the equivalent of a "trap room gimmick" - having a rogue makes it easier but it's not going to be necessary. And we already know what 94% of the game looks like (the non-Cataclysm part) and we can already see that Smoke Bomb isn't that useful in raids.

Kinajo · 04/15/10, 8:22 AM

Many of the bosses (Marrowgar, LDW, BQL, Sindra) being discussed about in regards to Smoke Bomb don't target the players specifically for their abilities, but rather just cast them and they hit somebody in range. Think of those abilities as Whirlwind with an unlimited range. (Whirlwind because it's the only hostile AE I can think of that has a target restriction.) Those abilities therefore should ignore the Smoke Bomb and just work normally.
For most other boss abilities, Nakari makes a very good point about LoS I think. Over the past expansions we've seen a shift from boss abilities being LoS'able to them ignoring LoS. Back in Vanilla many mobs were tanked in such a way that the abilities couldn't hit due to LoS. The dragons in BWL are a prime example for LoS'ing stuff. Razuvious' shout also was LoS'able back then and returned in the new version to ignore LoS. Unless they go back on that decision, Smoke Bomb won't have a lot of significance for bosses but might be nice for specific adds in a rotation with a hunters Camo.

Zulkeir · 04/15/10, 10:10 AM

Yet, in our rogue ICC tips and tricks thread we have a report from a rogue who claims his guild LOS's empowered shock vortex on the pillars. If this is accurate, it looks like certain bosses may be able to be clouded (though I imagine if you nullified an encounter in such a manner, it may be revised.

Tinwhisker · 04/15/10, 11:43 AM

Blizzard will not allow a single class to be able to negate fight mechanics that they feel are necessary; especially if it becomes apparent that that class/ability changes the fight difficulty in a substantial way. They will change the ability, the mechanic or both.

A perfect example of this would be the FoK interrupt and Yogg+0. FoK is/was our new level 80 ability (the same as Smoke Bomb). Combat rogues spamming FoK made a nearly impossible fight achievable (still not easy though). Rather than have a single class with an ability that was all but required required for the fight, they removed the talented ability for FoK to interrupt and changed the fight.

Blizzard may have made some poor choices along the way with certain things but they're not stupid. I can say with absolute certainty that Smoke Bomb will not be usable on any mechanic of consequence in Cataclysm unless they either slip up (which will be fixed) or they give a similar ability to another class (or two).

Vendelin · 04/15/10, 3:17 PM

I think it is very possible that smoke bomb will cover the same niche as Misdirection, Distracting Shot, Death Grip. The ability will be a helpful utility used in a couple of fights and might even be required on hard modes. It is not however an ability you will use every CD or even in every fight.

Joigahdenn · 04/15/10, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Blizzard will not allow a single class to be able to negate fight mechanics that they feel are necessary; especially if it becomes apparent that that class/ability changes the fight difficulty in a substantial way. They will change the ability, the mechanic or both.

A perfect example of this would be the FoK interrupt and Yogg+0. FoK is/was our new level 80 ability (the same as Smoke Bomb). Combat rogues spamming FoK made a nearly impossible fight achievable (still not easy though). Rather than have a single class with an ability that was all but required required for the fight, they removed the talented ability for FoK to interrupt and changed the fight.

Blizzard may have made some poor choices along the way with certain things but they're not stupid. I can say with absolute certainty that Smoke Bomb will not be usable on any mechanic of consequence in Cataclysm unless they either slip up (which will be fixed) or they give a similar ability to another class (or two).

While I mostly agree with the statement, I think its a touch too harsh. It is very likely that Blizzard will limit the PvE uses of Smoke Bomb, but to say that it won't be usable on any mechanic of consequence may be a bit of a stretch, aside from the fact the definitions such a mechanics are subjective. We don't know yet how new boss fights will turn out, Blizzard has thrown a bunch of new mechanics at us in WotLK and it could very well be that Smoke Bomb will come in handy. Also, the comparison to FoK is a little lacking because you got the interrupt for free while dealing massive damage if you FoKed, with Smoke Bomb it will require an active effort on the rogue's part, as well as the raid's to create and use LoS barriers. The major point is that Blizzard wants players to think about their actions and for opportunity costs to exist for those actions. For FoK on Yogg-0 there were none (or very few), this may not be the same for Smoke Bomb.

In short, is it likely that Smoke Bomb will have tons of PvE uses? No. But that doesn't mean it will be trivialized to the point that it will never be useful on any serious boss mechanics, as rare as that may end up being. That is *IF* Smoke Bomb even makes it to live.

Halbarad · 04/17/10, 2:17 PM

As we seem to have alot of debate about the Smoke Bomb and the "will it won't it" in regard to PvE use, two quotes from the twitter Dev Chat that at least confirm things will be considered.

From the DK questions,

Also be careful considering new spells for old encounters. The encounter designers will make the new encounters with the new spells in mind.

and more directly

Q: Is Smoke Bomb going to be usable in boss fights? Because it looks like it could cheat a lot of mechanics.
A: Potentially, yes. It essentially follows the same room of line-of-sight. If standing around a pillar lets you avoid a boss ability, then Smoke Bomb would too. Lady Deathwhisper’s adds for example, would run up to melee you if you were in a Smoke Bomb.

Vendelin · 04/17/10, 6:49 PM

Worth noting is that BLizzard seem to reimplement old mechnics and obstacles into WoW, for example mana regen as a major mechanics for healers and wepon procs as a part of the itemization. Maybe they will also in a higher extent add LoS mechanics to boss encounters.

Tinwhisker · 04/17/10, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by Blizzard Developer Chat

Q: Is Smoke Bomb going to be usable in boss fights? Because it looks like it could cheat a lot of mechanics.
A: Potentially, yes. It essentially follows the same room of line-of-sight. If standing around a pillar lets you avoid a boss ability, then Smoke Bomb would too. Lady Deathwhisper’s adds for example, would run up to melee you if you were in a Smoke Bomb.

I wouldn't doubt that it would work in such a situation but even in Heroic the first half of that fight is little more than a glorified trash pull.

My major concern is that Blizzard is often quite adamant that some spells and damage are meant to be part of the fight hence my point about mechanics of consequence. The instant the raid wants a rogue (or two or three) to start working on hard mode because we can say, run out and protect the healers from some mechanic so they can still heal the tank but not be affected by what the rest of the raid must LoS naturally then it's gone too far. Again we start seeing, "Bring 5 rogues to Firedragonator Hard Mode to rotate Smoke Bomb on healers."

Now rather than doing the fight the way Blizzard intended, we're raid stacking rogues so the healers don't have to LoS naturally and the tank is never in danger of dying. If Smoke bomb works against Bosses, then when LoS becomes part of the fight, stacking rogues becomes OP and breaks the encounter.

So with something like Smoke Bomb, if it works against bosses, raids will try to stack rogues for certain encounters (especially hard modes) and if it doesn't work against bosses then our level 85 skill is of no use to anyone who doesn't PvP (like me).

Joigahdenn · 04/17/10, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

The instant the raid wants a rogue (or two or three) to start working on hard mode because we can say, run out and protect the healers from some mechanic so they can still heal the tank but not be affected by what the rest of the raid must LoS naturally then it's gone too far. Again we start seeing, "Bring 5 rogues to Firedragonator Hard Mode to rotate Smoke Bomb on healers."

Now rather than doing the fight the way Blizzard intended, we're raid stacking rogues so the healers don't have to LoS naturally and the tank is never in danger of dying. If Smoke bomb works against Bosses, then when LoS becomes part of the fight, stacking rogues becomes OP and breaks the encounter.

OK, now I understand why you were making the assertion you were. Honestly, while it is speculation at this point, my guess is that Smoke Bomb will end up acting like a full LoS barrier, i.e. healers inside Smoke Bomb will not be able to heal people outside of Smoke Bomb with direct heals. If it works this way, it wouldn't be extremely OP but it may still prove to be an invaluable tool for raiding; it would have an opportunity cost and require weighing the pros and cons of going into Smoke Bomb.

• Aldriana · 04/17/10, 11:36 PM

I don't believe that there's been any statements made that indicate Smoke Bomb in any way inhibits you from casting ranged effects *out* of it - it clearly prevents them from being cast *into* smoke bomb, but from what we've read so far I don't believe there's any basis for believing that it limits your ability to cast *out*.

Tinwhisker · 04/18/10, 1:11 AM

The preview also stated specifically that *enemies* would not be able to cast through Smoke Bomb. The implication is that friendly spells will be unaffected when going both in and out.

Caerdor · 04/18/10, 7:00 AM

If it breaks LoS it should obviously break it for everyone, how can it only break it for your enemies? That would feel too buggy. Thats what happens when you stand behind a pillar at least.

Also its the reasonable thing to assume providing it was named Smoke Bomb: If someone is sitting in a smoke cloud you can't see them, but if you're standing in a smoke cloud you can't see outside either, independent of who actually created the smoke. Otherwise they would give it a weird spell name that implies it behaves differently than common smoke and probably give it to the Mage instead of the Rogue.