Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 60

Tinwhisker · 08/24/10, 7:55 PM

Yeah, SnD seems a poor choice for the selection they seem to be catering to. They're creating defaults for procs and SnD just doesn't fit.

"Oh look SnD is up... because I just activated it."

In fact, we don't have any "default" procs that I could name off-hand. I'm wondering if they just wanted to make sure we had something to see so some of the whiners don't feel left out.

Pyriana · 08/24/10, 8:10 PM

I don't see this being useful in general tbh, at least for me. I (for the most part) use audio queues so that I can keep my vision where it needs to be which is paying attention to my surroundings so I don't get cleaved, end up standing in fire, or shot off into space etc.

The fact that they included Slice and Dice in this just kinda boggled my mind, combo points would be more useful (but the scrolling combat text does that anyway). The only things that I could think of that would really be useful is something like for when MI is active sub 35%. Or perhaps an interrupt warning for special spells.

Corrahn · 08/24/10, 8:50 PM

Originally Posted by Pyriana

The fact that they included Slice and Dice in this just kinda boggled my mind

Yeah, the point I was trying to make is that MAYBE they are planning on changing Slice and Dice so it would actually make sense for it to be on that list.

Pyriana · 08/24/10, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by Corrahn

Yeah, the point I was trying to make is that MAYBE they are planning on changing Slice and Dice so it would actually make sense for it to be on that list.

This thought crossed my mind and could possibly be one of their ways to reduce rogue's passive damage, however I think they would have announced a change this big when stating their design goals/class preview, such as they did with the DK.

Fnar · 08/25/10, 3:29 AM

Then again the Hunter spell volley which is a mainstay of the class (perhaps not in a raid environment but for solo levelling/questing its a very potent AoE which is also the only Hunter ability that can be used <5yard range -apart from traps and disengage/melee moves but you get what I mean) has been outright removed, so the devs are clearly not scared of making major changes without any real warning.

How would they change SnD though? Reducing it's duration could ruin combat and subtlety rotations whilst not really impacting assassination due to the CttC mechanic.

• Aldriana · 08/25/10, 4:30 AM

I respectfully suggest that we don't have enough information to speculate on what changes they may or may not being making to SnD. We have only the narrowest hint of a shred of evidence that they might be pondering such a thing. If they change it, they change it and we can discuss it then. But I see little point to speculating on possible changes until we have actual information as opposed to pure speculation and guesswork.

Zulkeir · 08/25/10, 10:51 AM

If they are taking any cue from the current power auras mod, images should be selectable as well as the conditions which would trigger it. For example, in Power Auras you can set a negative modifier on a buff so it shows up when you don't have it active. You can also set timers on various auras so it shows the time left on it. I actually use my power auras as a cooldown tracker rather than a proc watcher, so that I can use my Tricks, Vanish, Saronite Bombs and Kick on cooldown.

The integration of Slice and Dice into the built in Power Aura may be nothing more than catering to those who would use the mod in replacement of a buff tracker in order to check the durations/existence of the buff. I see it as being far more likely that they have put in more of the power aura functionality than having changes made to a specific rogue skill.

Additionally, there are supposed to be some number of changes to the rogue UI, this may simply be a part of that as well; notice that Eclipse Sun&Moon are on that chart, despite that being part of the boomkin eclipse UI. I'm actually rather excited that they are looking at the rogue class in this, even if that specifically is not an Aura I would use.

EDIT: The inclusion of generic arcs in the bottom right strongly indicates that imagery will be customizable; most likely the spell name with the icon is just there to indicate a default for a spell, and also to make it easier to find the spell or effect you wish; in contrast with the current Power Auras where you have to type in the name (or look up the ID number) and hope it properly discovers it; and also in contrast with the icon selection for macros, where Blizzard just dumped all their imagery and let you have the fun of sorting for that one icon you want.

Zereo · 08/25/10, 3:58 PM

Just a quick question. Has anybody on beta experimented with using, say, a 5 CP Deadly Throw just before a FoK spam? I'm just curious since FoK changed to the thrown, how much of a buff Deadly Throw would provide. Seems it would at least be effective for leveling, especially with Redirect...

• Aldriana · 08/25/10, 4:22 PM

My understanding (and by all means feel free to correct me if you have other information) is that the "increased thrown weapon damage" isn't any sort of buff or debuff; rather, it just refers to the fact that the Deadly Throw itself does more damage than a usual attack with your thrown weapon - no more and no less. Hence using one before FoK would mean... you'd do some ranged damage with Deadly Throw, and then your usual AoE damage. Not really that exciting.

Pyriana · 08/25/10, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

My understanding (and by all means feel free to correct me if you have other information) is that the "increased thrown weapon damage" isn't any sort of buff or debuff; rather, it just refers to the fact that the Deadly Throw itself does more damage than a usual attack with your thrown weapon - no more and no less. Hence using one before FoK would mean... you'd do some ranged damage with Deadly Throw, and then your usual AoE damage. Not really that exciting.

Just tested to be sure, but this is indeed the case.

Nexian · 08/27/10, 2:21 AM

Initially, upon hearing about many of the Cataclysm changes, I agreed heavily with one of the much earlier posts by Aldriana. The changes coming didn't seem on scale with the changes we had seen in Wrath or Burning Crusade. But more and more I am becoming a little excited (and relative to this, anxious) of what Cataclysm is bringing our way.

And to that point, what the newest (that I've seen) talent trees, particularly Subtlety, show me. It looks like it might potentially bring it back to a PvE forum, as opposed to the purely PvP use that it has now (and even in that respect, I know a few who only use it for Preparation ). I can see it being on the verge of CP Generator Barren, especially in fights where you can't get behind a target, the possibility of it being a little energy starved, based on how haste scales and what sort of energy regen we'll see, but as it is now, there are some strengths that I could see coming from it. In that regard, I'm wondering if anyone else has any input on their feelings of the new Subtlety Tree.

Zaniel · 08/27/10, 7:30 AM

The problems with the Sub tree have been addressed multiple times in this thread: it has too many DPS talents leaving not enough choice in the filler; its primary CP builder has a positional component, making it awful while leveling; Shadowdance is fun, but it makes macros a necessity (or 6 fingers for all your binds).

From my hands-on in the beta, where I copied Zan over three times (one for each spec), on anything less than a boss fight Subtlety is a PITA. Soloing is slow and frustrating when compared to both Mut and Combat. The change to Serrated Blades in the last patch has made it less of a bother, but it's still unwieldy and the ramp-up is pretty high. This is what hurts most while not in a boss fight, I think.

So far in PvP, though, it is clearly superior in terms of baseline ability. Having the second round of cooldowns via Prep still makes a tremendous difference.

On the other hands, both Combat and Mutilate builds feel really, really good right now. RvS is a bit too easy to just macro into SS spam for Combat, and Mutilate needing to Rupture/Garrote for energy regen in a fight is clunky on anything that dies quickly, but overall both specs feel much better off than Sub does currently. Oh, and Backstabbing sub35% without addons to tell you when 35% is... is not cool.

Nexian · 08/28/10, 4:40 AM

While I have seen quite a few posts on the Sub spec as a whole, fair few of them really addressed it as I'd hoped it might be (which is to say, as you have done here), and I do appreciate you speaking on the matter, Zan. It is good to have the information you've provided, even if it is all subject to change.

Zaniel · 08/29/10, 1:02 AM

Since I gave a brief summary of my experiences with Sub, and since I did a substantial amount of messing around with Combat today, I just wanted to weigh in on how that tree is feeling.

In terms of talents spent, I still believe that Combat is the strongest tree. The filler may be weak, especially when compared to Assassination, but the tree definitely fits the theme that Blizz says they want: you have choices in what you pick up, and it is all up to personal preference. (This may be because the choices are weak, but so it goes.)

In action, Combat is surprisingly one of the most changed specs out there. It went from a SS spamfest into something seriously interesting. There are minute complexities that stack into a sum far greater than the individual parts. Notably, RvS's interaction with finishers means you have to use it any time you're going to pull off a damaging (Evis or Rupture), but because of the tuning, you really don't want to waste energy on a RvS if all you're going to be doing with those CPs is refreshing SnD. It's nice that you can be rewarded for planning ahead.

Another similar situation comes thanks to Bandit's Guile and the stacking buff, Combat Insight, which makes it even more important to plan ahead and save cooldowns (or even Rupture, I'd imagine) for when you're going to be hitting the 15% buff. Especially since the Insight buff is so easily controlled and predicted -- it increases based off the number of SSs or RvSs you hit -- Combat finally has something else to watch besides SnD, CPs, and cooldowns (which is nice now that BF is an AoE-only ability).

All in all, Combat has gained a TON of complexity, and it should be very easy to tell the good from the bad Combat rogues in Cata. Now if only we could improve the filler talents in that tree...

Cooljo · 08/29/10, 6:36 AM

It's too bad, that complexity isn't depth.

RvS is just an increase in pure complexity not in depth. You only hit it for the last CP if you do a damaging finishing move. There is no choice involved, just another button to keybind and to use.
Nearly the same goes for Bandit's Guile. If you don't want to cap out, you need to SS/RvS, hence your control over the exact uptime of the 3rd stack isn't that great (except Blizzard wants us to FoK instead of SS/RvS, which I highly doubt). The only thing, that adds depth to Bandit's Guile is the possibility to align AR/KS/other CDs with it.

But something that imo spoils this is Restless Blades. It has a small chance of being the thing that pushes the skill cap even further, but my feeling is, that the interaction between Bandit's Guile and the CDs (reduced through Restless Blades) will be a matter of high level theorycraft rather than a matter of skilled play. The analogy here is the "choice" to delay CDs for proccs, which can be theorycrafted and hence isn't a choice anymore, but a problemsolving issue.