Cataclysm Rogue Changes - Page 95

Saweni · 11/20/10, 8:49 PM

2 Things. First, does that value for mastery include the buff on beta servers that makes it 3.5% per point? Just asking because in the 4.0.1 rogue FAQ the values you gave @ level 80 with the buffed mastery had mastery only barely behind agility, and noticably better than haste.

4.0.1 values are EP values regarding a BiS lvl 80 gear. Which means a gear with lots and lots of haste/agi but no mastery on it.

Mastery is like our other stats, the more you stack one stat, the more the other stats get boosted. So the only piece of information 4.0.1 Ep values give you is that when you have lots of haste/agi and no mastery then mastery has a pretty high EP. It has never been a proof mastery would be such a good stat when you have got a ridiculously low amount of haste/agi on your gear like it is with t11 stuff.

Docrev · 11/21/10, 4:40 AM

Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag

It comes out to be an average of 64 haste rating, quite a bit better then 54 crit rating and substantially better then 21 crit rating. However, it is my understanding this meta’s proc shares a cooldown with a good number of trinket procs and various haste effects. It would be a good idea to double check this to see if it’s still true and the nature of it.

From testing on the PTR with my rogue and druid, it appears the meta does not share a cooldown with [Whispering Fanged Skull], [Darkmoon Card: Greatness], [Death's Choice], [Ashen Band of Endless Vengeance], [Mirror of Truth], or [Banner of Victory], with the proc from the meta either having been up at the same time as the proc from the trinket/ring, or in the case of the last two trinkets, with the trinket proc going up within 10 seconds of the proc from the meta appearing. The testing is fairly limited, but these were the only proc trinkets I had available.

bi0bi0 · 11/21/10, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

WARNING: I am going to post actual numbers in this post. Please note that these are still only estimates, and still may contain bugs. Use them at your own risk.

For a gear set that is plausibly BIS up through T11 Heroic, with a very rough cycle model but everything except the 4/5 T11 set bonus modeled, these are the EP values I get for Assassination at level 85:

Stat	EP
Agi	2.60
Yellow Hit	2.00
Spell Hit	1.46
Expertise	1.32
Haste	1.21
Mastery	1.12
Crit	0.89
White Hit	0.78

When iam not wrong you used 940dps test weapons from the beta, the t11 heroic weapons will have 521.8

test_mh = stats.Weapon(939.5, 1.8, 'dagger', 'landslide')
test_oh = stats.Weapon(730.5, 1.4, 'dagger', 'landslide')

This are atleast the values i got with BIS Heroic with your Shadowcraft Engine and 522 dps weapons

Stat	EP
Agi	2.57
Yellow Hit	1.93
Spell Hit	1.42
Expertise	1.25
Haste	1.14
Mastery	1.2
Crit	0.83
White Hit	0.74

• Aldriana · 11/21/10, 12:25 PM

    def __init__(self, damage, speed, weapon_type, enchant=None):
        self.speed = speed
        self.weapon_dps = damage/speed

That is: the number being passed in is not the DPS, but the average damage dealt by the weapon - hence, the weapons in question are doing 939.5 / 1.8 = 521.94 and 730.5 / 1.4 = 521.79 damage, respectively. Thus the numbers I posted are correct.

Neurosisxeno · 11/22/10, 1:46 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowwaltz

Second, would expertise be less valuable when you consider that dodging finishers doesn't cause you to lose all the energy cost anymore?

If expertise only applied to Finishing Moves that might be the case, but it also applies to white hits and mostly all dps except poisons. Expertise should still be capped because dodges can cause a chain reaction of lost combo points and proc downtime that will cause substantial dps loss.

Sarvius · 11/22/10, 2:33 PM

You're spot on, but it's worth noting that expertise affects poison dps as well. A dodged hit cannot proc a poison and as all poisons are a % chance to proc you're losing dps that you won't get back. Most people will probably say "well duh" but it has a lot to do with the value of expertise; hit, on the other hand, only applies to 100% of your dps until you hit the special cap at which point its value drops significantly.

PikaPika1006 · 11/22/10, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sarvius

You're spot on, but it's worth noting that expertise affects poison dps as well. A dodged hit cannot proc a poison and as all poisons are a % chance to proc you're losing dps that you won't get back. Most people will probably say "well duh" but it has a lot to do with the value of expertise; hit, on the other hand, only applies to 100% of your dps until you hit the special cap at which point its value drops significantly.

Pretty sure poisons have a chance to proc regardless of the white hit being successful. I'll do some testing later today to confirm/deny that though.

Finally got around to doing that testing, and yeah, I was wrong. Two half-hour parses, one only barely spell hit capped, and one white hit capped proved it. 50% proc rate using wound poison with a 1.4 speed weapon on both white hit capped and spell hit capped counting only successful white hits, 43%~ on spell hit capped counting missed hits.

Schmoopy · 11/22/10, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by PikaPika1006

Pretty sure poisons have a chance to proc regardless of the white hit being successful. I'll do some testing later today to confirm/deny that though.

From a purely logical standpoint this makes no sense.

The poison is applied to your weapon. In order to get the poison to the target you have to hit them with your weapon.

• Aldriana · 11/22/10, 3:27 PM

1) So far as I know attacks have to hit to proc poisons. If that's changed, it would be good to know, but it would shock me if that were the case.
2) I'd also like to see someone confirm that energy returns from dodged finishers has changed. I haven't noticed, but I haven't really had a chance to test. So before we start working through the implications of this "change", it would be good to verify whether the "change" does, in fact, exist.
3) If the mechanics have changed, it would make Expertise somewhat less valuable. Not necessarily a *lot* less valuable, mind you, but less valuable. Whether it is or would be worth maxing is a function of relative EP weights and gear availability - note the very high value of agility means its usually not worth gemming for expertise, hence its presumably only worth doing if you can get it via reforging. And its only worth getting via reforging if there aren't better stats available that can be reforged to.

Indalecio · 11/22/10, 7:07 PM

I do not currently have a screen shot (the capture timing is very difficult), but testing completely naked minus a vendor sword and untalented, I observed a 1pt eviscerate being dodged and my energy only drop to roughly 90/100 instead of 65/100.

I can note, however, that it is not a reported energy gain, as it did not show up in my combat log or recount.

edit: while still not perfect due, you can see that I'm sitting at 95 energy immediately following a dodged Eviscerate. I did not notice the missed finisher costing me any energy whatsoever.

Antimaxis · 11/22/10, 8:05 PM

When they readjusted the talent quick recovery in the talent trees (assas) and created quickening instead, did they make the dodged finisher-energy cost standard baseline? I can find any written record of this but it would appear this is the current mechanic?

evill · 12/03/10, 10:37 AM

Well, reading all post talking about professions, i have a noob question, How much pure dps we gain giving JC/ENG instead Mining/ENG?, talking in pure dps not in EP. From my ignorance I dont know how to do the conversion fro EP to real DPS, I did in the suposse we have T11 and BiS, but i failed in all trys.
Thanks you all for the help guys, and sorry my horrible english.

Feist-Mok · 12/03/10, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by evill

Well, reading all post talking about professions, i have a noob question, How much pure dps we gain giving JC/ENG instead Mining/ENG?, talking in pure dps not in EP. From my ignorance I dont know how to do the conversion fro EP to real DPS, I did in the suposse we have T11 and BiS, but i failed in all trys.
Thanks you all for the help guys, and sorry my horrible english.

In general, any of the +80 Agi professions can be estimated to be somewhere between 200 and 250 DPS. Historically, EP: DPS has been in the ballpark of a 1:1 conversion, give or take some decimals on either side, but this varies with gear, buffs, and other factors.