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11/28/10, 11:23 AM
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#121
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Struck by Diax's Rake
Troll Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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That's exactly why I laid all the assumptions to my model out in the open, so you can tweak the numbers and see what happens. But this is the sort of thing a spreadsheet is good at, so I made one:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=COmTjq4L
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11/28/10, 6:04 PM
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#122
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Bald Bull
Roywyn
Gnome Mage
No WoW Account (EU)
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That's a pretty nice comparison of meta there. Still, there are a few more things to consider at level 85.
First, your rating requirements are 4 times as high for the same effect while your spell power and base healing combined roughly doubles. That means that the values of ratings are roughly halved compared to intellect. Judging spirit is a bit harder. You now have ~32k mana, this will go up to 90k+ in the first tier of raid gear. As regen is const*SPI*root(INT), this means that in order to retain the regen:mana ration (i.e. the time to regen to full, or regen a fixed percentage of mana) when your total mana triples, your SPI has to scale as much as root(INT), i.e. by root(3) = 1.7. So, while crit/haste/mastery need to be 4 times as high for the same effect as now, spirit only needs to increase to be 1.7 times as high. (So far, the level-dependent mana regen constant has not changed from 80-85, this may still happen though).
Now, back to the meta gems. Insightful offers 75mp5 when spammign heals. Ember adds 33 INT (54-21) and 2% max. mana. That's 600+1800 mana, or 40 mp5 from initial mana and another 12 mp5 from Replenishment. Also, assuming that you reach 90k mana and your spirit doubles, you'll have at least 600 mp5 in combat, the 2.4k mana add 8 mp5 for Ember (x% increase to mana means (x/2)% increase to regen, for small x), 10% with Mana Tide Totem on cooldown.. The 33 INT also add about 0.5% throughput, and it boils down to whether this 0.5% throughput from Ember is better or worse than the remaining 13mp5 advantage from Insightful which require casting every 2 seconds like clockwork. Since Ember scales with max mana and spirit while Insightful may at most scale with hast, Ember will be the better choice. Maybe not necessarily in blues but between T11 and T12. But before that, the old Insightful meta is still at least very competitive for long-term mana.
Revitalising is a adifferent beast. 54 spirit adds about 35 mp5. Assuming 20% crit (15% base/int/crit, 5% raid buff), the 3% healing adds ~1% throughput. Compared to the others, it doesn't look that good. You'd have to value throughput much higher than mana to take over the other meta. And the 54 spirit part then is not very appealing for focusing on throughput. If it were "54 SPI + 2% mana" vs. "54 INT + 3% crit heal", it would separate them more. Then again, Revitalising scales directly with crit, so who know how it'll turn out finally?
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11/30/10, 11:33 AM
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#123
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Cymbrogi
Any when your Lightning Bolts start hitting for 5000-6000? And did you take into account Convection? How about crits?
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Crits? what about being able to hit? Its likely that most healers will be sitting around 1-2% hit unless that stats on our gear change at 85. Thus the damage contribution is hardly worth mentioning and the potential mana gain, will not be reliable. Unless i am missing something?
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11/30/10, 6:28 PM
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#124
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Ashenmoor
Crits? what about being able to hit? Its likely that most healers will be sitting around 1-2% hit unless that stats on our gear change at 85. Thus the damage contribution is hardly worth mentioning and the potential mana gain, will not be reliable. Unless i am missing something?
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Elemental Precision?
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11/30/10, 7:40 PM
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#125
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Cymbrogi
Elemental Precision?
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True, i didnt consider speccing for it, but wouldnt that increase it to a 5 point investment? I havent played with the talent caculator much but it cant be worth 5 talent points.
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11/30/10, 9:13 PM
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#126
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Ashenmoor
True, i didnt consider speccing for it, but wouldnt that increase it to a 5 point investment? I havent played with the talent caculator much but it cant be worth 5 talent points.
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Acuity -- 3% crit.
Convection -- 10% less mana per lightning bolt = more mana gain per cast.
Elemental Precision -- Hit and 3% damage.
If you are going to go for a build that uses Telluric Currents for mana regen than none of these talents are wasted.
Last edited by Cymbrogi : 11/30/10 at 9:27 PM.
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12/01/10, 5:43 AM
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#127
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Shaman
Deathwing (EU)
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Originally Posted by Cymbrogi
Acuity -- 3% crit.
Convection -- 10% less mana per lightning bolt = more mana gain per cast.
Elemental Precision -- Hit and 3% damage.
If you are going to go for a build that uses Telluric Currents for mana regen than none of these talents are wasted.
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Frankly, I can't see how it's worth it. 5 talent point to buff situational regen mechanic? Easier to gear up for regen.
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42.
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12/01/10, 12:11 PM
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#128
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Von Kaiser
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I made a quick spreadsheet to show the changes in Telluric Currents mana gain based on talents and stats.
Telluric Mana
(To change the values you will need to either download to excel or copy the sheet on Google Docs.)
Some caveats:
First, I do not remember any average resto raid-buffed stats, so the default values are complete guesses.
Second, this spreadsheet does not calculate MP5 or compare with other talents, it only assists in such ventures.
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12/02/10, 4:40 PM
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#129
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Don Flamenco
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I looked at building a Telluric Mana spec, and ran into a bit of a problem. Specifically, that 31 minimum in Resto plus the 8 minimum in Elemental leaves only 2 loose points at 85. There are about 8 or 9 points I'd love to spend them on ranging from nice to very good and forbids other utility. Is the potential gain here worth the opportunity cost?
Now, I'll make the brief assumption that Mana Tide is not worth casting in a Telluric spec, due to alternate means of gaining mana. I will also make the assumption here (WAG, but seems reasonable and will become more so over time) that 4% damage on the Bolts will work out to a better mana gain than 10% cost reduction. In this case, I end up with something that looks like THIS.
Assuming a standing fight in which you get the opporutnity to Bolt every now and then (and that Telluric ends up letting us gain mana), it works out very well indeed. However, the more time that is occupied by movement and healing, the less and less 7 points of the spec end up helping. I'm not in the Beta and know nothing of the fights, but even if the starting bosses qualify it is almost certain that this will stop being the case. There is, of course, no way to tell, but I can't imagine "Tank'n'Spank" being the new standard.
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To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
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12/02/10, 6:14 PM
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#130
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Von Kaiser
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I would be shocked if a resto shaman can't push a 3.5k lightning bolt at 85 - the level necessary to make a lightning bolt a net mana gain. But that isn't the point, and I don't imagine that was the thrust of GC's comment either. It won't be an effective way to regenerate mana for a healer, emphasis effective.
After watching videos of beta raid testing, it seems highly unlikely that you will consistently have a safe 2ish seconds to toss a LB at the boss. If you rely on this as a restoration mechanism, I sumbit that it will degrade your effectiveness as a healer. You will hesitate to interrupt nearly-complete LBs to address a healing issue. That hesitation will, in aggregate, mean more wipes, and they'll be your fault. It's the kind of intangible complexity that doesn't show up in a model, or a parse, or a spreadsheet, but is clearly there. As long as even some of those 6 talent points can be spent on other talents that enhance your traditional healing objectives of regen and throughput, I don't see how adding this kind of calculus to your brain's cycle load is a wise decision.
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12/02/10, 6:30 PM
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#131
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Von Kaiser
Undead Warlock
Zenedar (EU)
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Originally Posted by PsyBomb
Now, I'll make the brief assumption that Mana Tide is not worth casting in a Telluric spec, due to alternate means of gaining mana.
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As long as there is at least one person/class in the raid that benefits from Mana Tide I don't see how you could ever justify not picking up the talent and spending two GCDs on it. Based on stated design goals and anecdotal beta reports I find it unlikely that nobody needs it.
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12/03/10, 2:06 PM
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#132
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Von Kaiser
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Really the only time I can imagine a build containing Elemental Precision to be useful is a fight with long periods of heavy healing relieved by periods downtime. The more consistent you need to heal, the less mana you will get back from casting LBs. The more time you have to cast LB, the less you need that regen.
Really I think we need to wait for some HEP reports that show total mana gain on fights where that mana is an issue. Until then I would recommend talents that will have a more direct and consistent effect on your healing.
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12/04/10, 11:23 AM
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#133
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Glass Joe
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Without 'spoiler'ing things too much, there are a few fights that contain increased damage phases. During these phases the mana gained from LB is absolutely insane and 100% justifies taking the talent. However I have found the 15% increased movement speed and instant ghost wolf talent to be utterly indispensable now that I have it so picking up Ele Precision isn't really something I can see myself doing. This is especially the case with the new nerfed engineering, though there is no news on if that is intended or a bug.
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12/04/10, 10:48 PM
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#134
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Struck by Diax's Rake
Troll Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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Locking this thread. All future resto shaman discussion should take place in the new Cataclysm discussion thread. With the launching of the new threads, rules will be aggressively enforced as per this announcement:
http://elitistjerks.com/f79/a59-cataclysm_coming/
Last edited by Jessamy : 12/05/10 at 8:27 AM.
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