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Old 01/27/11, 6:01 PM   #181
Sun_Tzu
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Priest
 
Stormreaver (EU)
Stoke; those are normal mode fights, nobody takes enough damage to actually get proper mileage out of any HoT effects, much less get the 100% proccing of ELW up. Also, the benefits are naturally lower on 10man than 25man. You also don't seem to be running ELW glyph, which further diminishes the healing of ELW by 20%.

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Old 01/28/11, 4:35 AM   #182
Reyna
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Shaman
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I think he's merely going with a "What if" scenario - thinking like, what if we could change all our haste into crit (or mastery)? Would that benefit us? Even though that's practically impossible with the gear available currently, it's an interesting hypothesis.

I feel the benefit of getting those big GHW's out just a little bit faster is too valuable to put in any mathematical equations though, so I'm personally going for the 2k breakpoint as soon as it's really viable HPM-wise.

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Old 01/28/11, 1:25 PM   #183
stoke
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Shattered Hand
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
Stoke; those are normal mode fights, nobody takes enough damage to actually get proper mileage out of any HoT effects, much less get the 100% proccing of ELW up. Also, the benefits are naturally lower on 10man than 25man. You also don't seem to be running ELW glyph, which further diminishes the healing of ELW by 20%.
I am using data from top guilds on World of Logs, not my own kills. I am using their healing numbers. If they're glyphed for ELW then my numbers account for it.

Here is a 25M Maloriak Heroic fight.

9:52 fight - 9109.6 HPS from Shaman, who is glyphed for ELW
RT cast 46 times (23.9% over-healing)
EL procs 126 times (35.0% over-healing)
HR cast 6 times, reaching an average of 24 raiders each cast (23.0% over-healing)

Having 0 haste would have resulted in a 403.7 HPS loss in this example.
Having 262 haste would have resulted in a 333.9.7 HPS loss in this example.
Having 610 haste would have resulted in a 140.8 HPS loss in this example.

Here is a 25M Halfus Heroic fight.

4:22 fight - 10280.1 HPS from Shaman, who is glyphed for ELW
RT cast 28 times (31.9% over-healing)
EL procs 83 times (61.5% over-healing)
HR cast 13 times, reaching an average of 18 raiders each cast (57.9% over-healing)

Having 0 haste would have resulted in a 585.5 HPS loss in this example.
Having 262 haste would have resulted in a 511.18 HPS loss in this example.
Having 610 haste would have resulted in a 97.57 HPS loss in this example.

Last edited by stoke : 01/28/11 at 2:46 PM.

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Old 01/28/11, 4:42 PM   #184
Ashenmoor
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Frostwolf
Long story short, you believe haste is overrated? While your meters lend themselves to this idea, the value of haste (as far as I can tell) is not so much about the increase in hps/hpm it provides, but how much better it is at providing an increase than crit or mastery. So without definitive proof of mastery or crit being superior, isnt haste still going to be the best stat for throughput?


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Old 01/29/11, 8:10 PM   #185
Greentouch
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Reyna View Post
Not strictly speaking true - 250 spirit will translate into 1000 spirit for the duration of manatide only, which means an average gain of 1000*16.4/180 = ~91 spirit.
I'm strongly considering main swapping to my new resto shaman, so forgive me if I radically miss something as I'm new to Shaman TC. Though I just read this whole thread at least.

But that's 91 spirit PER healer correct? Which means if there are 7 healers total, each 250 spirit on our gear, will equal 887 raid spirit. (7x91+250, since our spirit counts too.)

Now as far as I've seen for every healer, the best way currently to add throughput, is by adding regen. Looking at it selfishly, Resto shamans could be the exception since crit looks so good, haste is so good, and mastery is situationally amazing(or sucky).

But more mana lets priests spam PoH more, Pallys spam DL more, and druids spam RJ more. Nobody, however geared can sustain their highest hps rotation for an entire boss encounter.

Anyone who says they don't have mana problems, is probably either on easier content, or bringing too many healers.

Even if it is true, if a healer is having no mana regen issues, they can reforge out of spirit and or drop regen talents and pick up solid throughput that way.

I simply can't see any possible justification to not stack spirit if every 250 spirit = 887 for the raid. Spirit is already really good for us, letting us use HR and more expensive heals more, every stat priority I've seen including the OP's has spirit in the 2nd-3rd place. Tack on a bonus 631 spirit for every 250, and its by FAAAAR our best stat. Only exception I could see, is if a 25 man raid had 2-3 restos, then everyone probably already can afford to spam the most expensive heals and reforge out of spirit.

Personally, if I do end up main swapping, I'll stack spirit on every piece of gear, every gem slot, the meta, and both trinkets. I'll keep an offset for throughput. Not the other way around.

On that note though, has anyone tested on the ptr if the spirit from the [Jar of Ancient Remedies], or [Darkmoon Card: Tsunami] counts toward MTT? It would be amazing but I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: On the whole Telluric Current debate, I didn't see anyone comment on the other uses of the hit talents you pick up with it. Not only do your LB's and dispels not miss, your cc on trash is more reliable, but you can also reliably interrupt.

Now having a healer as a part of an interrupt rotation may not be ideal, but several fights we've done so far we were hard up for interrupts. Nefarian pretty much requires 6, Maloriak needs 2 on at all times, and its much better to not rely on melee, as if they are killing adds during green, or suddenly have to run out during blue phase, or dodge a frost bomb in the final phase, bam, raid wipe. I know most shamans have been qqing with us druids about lack of utility, but in my opinion having the most useful interrupt mechanic in the game can be some serious utility. And the elemental precision/telluric current spec plays right into it.

Last edited by Greentouch : 01/30/11 at 6:13 AM.

All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide

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Old 01/30/11, 11:49 AM   #186
Moshne
Bald Bull
 
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Pandaren Shaman
 
Whisperwind
On that note though, has anyone tested on the ptr if the spirit from the [Jar of Ancient Remedies], or [Darkmoon Card: Tsunami] counts toward MTT? It would be amazing but I'm not holding my breath.
I'm shocked to say this, but testing the Jar on the PTR did give me a 400% increase. I don't have a darkmoon card yet to test it, so someone else will have to do that.

To make sure my methodology is correct:
I have 2309 spirit without the Jar stacks, the Jar adds 515 for 2824.
If the Jar did not count, I'd expect to get 4*2309+2824= 12060
Instead I got 14120, which would be 4*2824+2824.

Just to make sure it was actually functioning correctly on the PTR, I tested it with my [Figurine - Dream Owl] and it was most definitely not being added into the MTT Spirit. [With no Jar stacks, I triggered the Owl then MTT and got 12970=(2309*4)+(2309+1425).

ed: Interestingly, the totem checks for your spirit at the time you drop it, not each pulse or any sort of update during the time it is up. If you want to take advantage of it with the Jar, you have to have it stacked before you drop it. However, you could trigger the use on it after dropping it if you felt so inclined without costing the rest of your raid mana.

Also, the tooltip for the Tide now indicates the total Spirit you get from it. When I drop it with 2826 Spirit, the tip will indicate "increases spirit by 11304." While this isn't important for the shaman necessarily, it may be a useful raid tool to figure out if your shaman are taking advantage of their MTT properly by seeing their spirit numbers when it is applied.

Last edited by Moshne : 01/30/11 at 12:06 PM.

<Something Wicked> - 11/13 HM -25m - W/Th/Sun 8-12 CST LF Healer
www.somethingwickedguild.com

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Old 01/31/11, 9:35 AM   #187
Skulmaster
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Burning Blade (EU)
Haste
From what I have experienced, and the opinions of other people about haste, people seem to see haste only as a throughput stat. But I like to see it too as a mana conservation stat, or even mana regeneration stat.
You need to factor in the damage per second your target is taking, and the healing per second you are doing to keep the race. The more haste you have, the more you can ‘spamcast’ your cheap mana efficient spell like HW and CH, keeping your target(s) up without having to resort to more expensive spells like HS and HR.
In my old gearset I was sitting at 1500 spirit, 1600 haste and 20% crit and only on a few fights I really felt that my mana regen was a problem. On single targets (Tanks) I useally start spamming HW, until I really see I can’t keep up anymore, then I resort to HS or GHW. On multitargets I usually just use CH (to conserve mana), only using HR when the healing from CH just isn’t enough, or when it’s possible to anticipate the incoming AoE damage (Magmatron counter measurement or Sleetstorm), then I lay down HR and CH to get the targets up faster.
HR is really a great spell, but I tend to use it with caution because it can really drain your mana pool fast. With enough haste CH really shines in the mana spent vs healing done department. Because of that I don’t want to drop below ~1500 Haste, and I will even aim for the 2005 breakpoint.

Haste and HoT's
Yes haste will give you extra ticks, and yes the last HoT ticks will have a chance of ending up being overheal. But the extra ticks are free, and cost you no mana (unless you factor in the fact that you reforged regeneration stats for the extra haste). But it all depends on how you use your HoT spells, which you can’t see just from analyzing parses.
E.g.: If you cast HR after the AoE dmg already has occurred, your first ticks will heal for the full amount, but the ticks that occur near the ends, well have a good chance of being overheal. If you however have good timing, and you can cast your HR while the AoE spell is still being cast, and your HR lands just as the AoE damage kicks in the chance for overheal is pretty slim. If you cast your HR too soon, the first ticks you do will most likely be overheal instead.

What people also seem to forget, is that you will not only gain extra ticks, but your ticks also tick faster. A silly example is that with 35k Haste rating, HR will get 20 (+1) Ticks, that heal each 0,5 seconds. Yes the last 5 ticks might be overheal, but the first 15 (16) won’t. It’s not that because that your (last) extra tick ended in overheal, that the value of haste can be considered useless in that scenario. Haste will still your other ticks land faster.

About TC.
With 4.0.6 bringing the MTT nerf, and my personal spirit becoming an important factor for the other healers, I have decided to spec into TC and 2/3 Elemental Precision. As Draenei I will need 2460 spirit to be hitcapped, which will also give a solid amount of base spirit to provide the other healers through MTT. I will need to do some testing, but I believe having this much spirit, will also allow me to drop the WS glyph and go for ES/ELW/Riptide glyphs instead.
Now back to the Haste, if you are specced into TC, Haste will also become an effective regeneration stat which you should factor in. More Haste is more LB's you can squeeze in.

Though I’m never assigned to interrupt, I always try to do so even when I’m in Resto spec. Often the mana cost to interrupt is by far lower than the mana cost it would take to heal up the damage. Especially when multiple healers heal the same target(s) (=overheal, wasted mana). I’m fairly annoyed when I get the ‘miss’ message, I’m confident that Elemental Precision will make a big difference here.

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Old 01/31/11, 11:29 AM   #188
KISA
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Scarlet Crusade
I still have a problem using TC as a regen tool, due to the marginal mana gains I've seen. Perhaps my gear is just too low to see the provided benefit, but I also don't see throwing away healing effectiveness for a "possiblity" of mana regen. I've seen the math on the issue, but I'm still not convinced it should be relied on in that capacity. Its value to me will always seem niche and situational to events that require me to dps or opportunities where I can pull a few LBs out while the boss is not doing any real damage to anyone. It's already been said that regen was never the talents intention, so I also assume that if they see a trend of TCs use in that capacity we will see some form of change to make it an even worse talent than it already is.

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Old 01/31/11, 6:03 PM   #189
Grandaddy
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Drak'Tharon
Your statement that your gear may be too low to see the benefit is entirely correct. My alt shaman in mostly 333 running heroics as the sole healer gets very little utility from TC, while my main in full raid epics with 25-man buffs can get very significant, necessary regeneration by squeezing LBs into lulls in the healing.

As far as Blizzard's stated intention in Beta for TC to be mana neutral, it seems to me that it is greatly overemphasized. Tier 11 content has been fully cleared on hard mode (albeit by vanishingly few people), and the major balancing patch in the near future has no changes which will affect TC. If in six months we are destined to go into 4.1 Firelands raiding with a nerfed TC, that's not really relevant to the current discussion except on a class design level outside the scope of this thread. Blizzard is clearly aware of how TC is being used, and it's a tricky talent to fully utilize that's not without significant costs to acquire.

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Old 02/01/11, 1:24 AM   #190
moosecall
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Kalecgos
Just tested [Darkmoon Card: Tsunami] on the PTR, the spirit buff counted for mana tide.

I dropped mana tide with a full 5 stacks of the trinket buff and got 10176 spirit on the mana tide buff, when dropped without any stacks of Giant Wave, it was 8576.

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Old 02/01/11, 1:47 AM   #191
Greentouch
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Grandaddy View Post
Your statement that your gear may be too low to see the benefit is entirely correct. My alt shaman in mostly 333 running heroics as the sole healer gets very little utility from TC, while my main in full raid epics with 25-man buffs can get very significant, necessary regeneration by squeezing LBs into lulls in the healing.

As far as Blizzard's stated intention in Beta for TC to be mana neutral, it seems to me that it is greatly overemphasized. Tier 11 content has been fully cleared on hard mode (albeit by vanishingly few people), and the major balancing patch in the near future has no changes which will affect TC. If in six months we are destined to go into 4.1 Firelands raiding with a nerfed TC, that's not really relevant to the current discussion except on a class design level outside the scope of this thread. Blizzard is clearly aware of how TC is being used, and it's a tricky talent to fully utilize that's not without significant costs to acquire.
The TC spec will remain situationally useful for awhile, a good off spec if nothing else. Any time you need to cc, interrupt, or if there is a good lull or dps gimmic you can take advantage off.

Thanks for testing, looks to me like the tsunami deck, and the jar will be the 2 bis then. We get our spirit to contribute to the raid and the throughput! Good to know.

All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide

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Old 02/01/11, 1:51 AM   #192
Warelle
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Auchindoun (EU)
What about the 4-piece tier bonus - it's also kind of 100% up. Can someone check on PTR if it counts for MT?

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Old 02/01/11, 2:04 AM   #193
Corunix
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Дракономор (EU)
Originally Posted by Warelle View Post
What about the 4-piece tier bonus - it's also kind of 100% up. Can someone check on PTR if it counts for MT?
Checked on Saturday, it didn't, so you can now treat it as a ~-300 mana to Riptide cost.

Last edited by Corunix : 02/01/11 at 8:27 AM.

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Old 02/01/11, 2:51 AM   #194
moosecall
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Kalecgos
I also checked the flask of flowing water, and no surprise, it is also counted for Mana tide including the mixology bonus.

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Old 02/01/11, 5:09 AM   #195
Sun_Tzu
Von Kaiser
 
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Worgen Priest
 
Stormreaver (EU)
I've been considering a bit where Resto Shamans might go from here, and quite frankly, post-patch I see no future in 10mans, not that there was much to begin with. However, what really bothers me is that with the mastery and GHW change, there might have been a real opportunity to use Shamans stacking int>mastery>haste and casting TW-hasted GHW's, trying to act as a life-saver whenever someone dropped low. This would have, finally allowed us to get some real mileage out of our mastery without eating into the benefits, as we currently do with HS/CH/HR (i.e. each consecutive heal gains a smaller benefit from mastery, where as GHW heals in a larger lump sum which is all effected by the higher amount of mastery gains existent when the heal was cast).

The problem, naturally, is that after swapping around gear in order to play mana battery, we're down by ~1k Int for the reasonably well geared Shamans currently. And the spell that takes the biggest hit from this is GHW, which assuming the coeff now goes up to 0,9, would lose about 1/4th of the buff to it due to how we are forced to change our gearing. Worse yet, having tested this on magmaw HC yesterday with HS spam (without mastery stacking, as it doesn't make sense for HS), this kind of role is a heavy drain on mana, and the loss of double-tide regen further hurts this kind of strategy.

Ironically, what seems will be hurt the least is the current haste>crit>mastery secondary stat prio and a raidhealing CH/HR/ELW spam mindset. So the net effect of the change? Worse regen, a bit less HPS, and less room for diversification of tasks in a raid environment.

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