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Old 02/02/11, 2:23 AM   #196
tscad
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Destromath
As of current I disagree with the TC arguments above. I would much rather use the two talent points in Totemic Focus and get a longer tide, which doesn’t bind me to dpsing while I should be healing. Yes, there are some, I would say fewer rather than more, fights that do have some down time for healers. Again however, I disagree. I think that many people are looking at the mana gain on the charts and forgetting that in order to make that mana they had to spend mana. Let take this example of 5 Lightning Bolts:

5 x Lightning bolt = ~7500 mana
Lets say that one misses because we have no hit.
Lets assume that one crits and the rest don’t.
Lets give it a moderate value of 9k per crit and 6k per non-crit.
27k dmg = ~10k mana – ~7500 mana spent = ~2500 mana gain and 10-15 seconds lost. (Using an average ilvl of 355. Obviously there will be greater returns on higher ilvl gear)

As of current, I can pop my trinkets and then throw down mana tide with Totemic Focus x2 and restore 40-50% of my base mana (~37,000 – 41,000 mana) and it didn’t cost me a thing. Because fights are so long we have time for at least 2 tides if you use your first one early on at 70% or so. More importantly, I never have to stop healing. My usual activity time is 100% and I normally come in top or second highest heals. Also, without Totemic Focus (as of current) you most likely have to replace your totems because they’ll expire under current raid conditions. This comes at a cost of ~6k mana.

Furthermore, if we take the mana restored by tide divide it by the 3 min cooldown and multiply it by the 10 seconds it took equal to casting the lightning bolts we come up with ~2270 mana per 10 seconds which is a little less than that from TC, but without the loss of time and assuming that you can dps the entire fight, which is impossible.

Now this is all under the assumption that you removed the 2 talent points from Totemic Focus. I would only assume that the other consideration would have been to take the 2 points from Ancestral Swiftness, which I personally use and love. I have seen some shamans take it from Acuity which I disagree on as my crit unbuffed is 20% and ELW is my third top heal behind HR and CH.

Last edited by tscad : 02/02/11 at 2:37 AM.

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Old 02/02/11, 4:55 AM   #197
Reyna
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Shaman
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Anyone care to doublecheck my math? It doesn't seem that bad post-patch, assuming you can get ahold of a heroic Jar of Ancient Remedies + Darkmoon Card: Tsunami. Not an easy feat to pull off, but possible.

Prepatch with Core of Ripeness: 1926*20/180 + 1926*3.5*16.4/180 = 828,18
Prepatch with Tear of Blood: 1710*15/60 + 1710*3.5*15/180 - 1710*15/180 = 783,75
For a total of 1611,93 theoretical* spirit prepatch

Postpatch with DMC:T+JoAR: 580 from jar, 400 from tsunami, plus an increase of (580+400)*4*16.4/180 = 198,6 from tide, for a total of 1178,62 spirit from both trinkets

*higher than what's practically possible since you must time the proc flawlessly to reach this number. I would assume a number around 80-90% of this.

edit: Reworked the math, had forgotten to include the natural increase in spirit from Core.

Last edited by Reyna : 02/02/11 at 5:36 AM.

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Old 02/02/11, 6:27 AM   #198
Sun_Tzu
Von Kaiser
 
Sun_Tzu's Avatar
 
Worgen Priest
 
Stormreaver (EU)
Originally Posted by tscad View Post
As of current I disagree with the TC arguments above. I would much rather use the two talent points in Totemic Focus and get a longer tide, which doesn’t bind me to dpsing while I should be healing. Yes, there are some, I would say fewer rather than more, fights that do have some down time for healers. Again however, I disagree. I think that many people are looking at the mana gain on the charts and forgetting that in order to make that mana they had to spend mana. Let take this example of 5 Lightning Bolts:

5 x Lightning bolt = ~7500 mana
Lets say that one misses because we have no hit.
Lets assume that one crits and the rest don’t.
Lets give it a moderate value of 9k per crit and 6k per non-crit.
27k dmg = ~10k mana – ~7500 mana spent = ~2500 mana gain and 10-15 seconds lost. (Using an average ilvl of 355. Obviously there will be greater returns on higher ilvl gear)

As of current, I can pop my trinkets and then throw down mana tide with Totemic Focus x2 and restore 40-50% of my base mana (~37,000 – 41,000 mana) and it didn’t cost me a thing. Because fights are so long we have time for at least 2 tides if you use your first one early on at 70% or so. More importantly, I never have to stop healing. My usual activity time is 100% and I normally come in top or second highest heals. Also, without Totemic Focus (as of current) you most likely have to replace your totems because they’ll expire under current raid conditions. This comes at a cost of ~6k mana.

Furthermore, if we take the mana restored by tide divide it by the 3 min cooldown and multiply it by the 10 seconds it took equal to casting the lightning bolts we come up with ~2270 mana per 10 seconds which is a little less than that from TC, but without the loss of time and assuming that you can dps the entire fight, which is impossible.

Now this is all under the assumption that you removed the 2 talent points from Totemic Focus. I would only assume that the other consideration would have been to take the 2 points from Ancestral Swiftness, which I personally use and love. I have seen some shamans take it from Acuity which I disagree on as my crit unbuffed is 20% and ELW is my third top heal behind HR and CH.
The popularized 25man TC spec does include totemic focus, as group utility is the whole basis of the spec. This is the approximate spec that is being used:

TC/Elemental Precision spec

Improved water shield is dropped as the spec assumes you are running haste not crit, reducing the value of water shield procs. Improved cleansing waters is also dropped as the usefulness of this in a 25man raid environment is negligable; there are other classes which can handle magic dispells. Mana Tide Totem is used to bolster the regen of priests primarily and paladins secondarily, and TC is intended to bridge the gap for your personal regen, allowing you to keep up a HR/CH raidhealing rotation.

This spec is purely intended for 25man use however.

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Old 02/02/11, 11:59 AM   #199
tscad
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu View Post
The popularized 25man TC spec does include totemic focus, as group utility is the whole basis of the spec. This is the approximate spec that is being used:

TC/Elemental Precision spec

Improved water shield is dropped as the spec assumes you are running haste not crit, reducing the value of water shield procs. Improved cleansing waters is also dropped as the usefulness of this in a 25man raid environment is negligable; there are other classes which can handle magic dispells. Mana Tide Totem is used to bolster the regen of priests primarily and paladins secondarily, and TC is intended to bridge the gap for your personal regen, allowing you to keep up a HR/CH raidhealing rotation.

This spec is purely intended for 25man use however.
I beg to differ that this spec is "popularized" for any level of raiding. It's a paragon spec that assumes that you are only doing 25 mans, have the best healers in the game pared with the best gear. A very unlikely situation for 95%+ of the raiding community. I have never seen this spec used on anyone outside of a very select few on forums. Out of the 3 paragon resto shamans only one uses the spec as it's intended with continuous HR while the others use traditional healing methods. This is also shown in the number of LB's cast by the other 2 paragon resto shamans, some fights as little as 5. The overhealing performed by these shamans using this spec is normally in the 55-65% range with an average HPS of 8k assuming top level gear. Most resto shamans who don't use this spec are ~500 hps less with far inferior gear. In addition it I agree 100% with the below quote that it essentially makes us "brute force" healers.

A quote from lifeingroup5.com:

"... I have some concern about how it might influence the future of shaman healing. Not only does it highlight the current misalignment of philosophy and application of Telluric Currents, but it also puts into stark contrast the tension that exists in shaman healing. And while the former condition is easily addressed in the form of a TC nerf, the latter condition is not as easily handled. Because HR is such a high HPS spell, with a small limiting CD, resto shamans will naturally try to cast the spell more frequently, as their mana will allow, in an effort to increase their healing contribution. Should the limits on mana become imbalanced (as they are with TC usage), then the spell will become a new 1-button to victory, casually disregarding qualities like selection, judgment and overhealing in favor of a brute force approach. This is not a direction I care to see shamans go, and it’s hopefully something that the watchful eyes at Blizzard have on their radar."

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Old 02/02/11, 7:10 PM   #200
Sun_Tzu
Von Kaiser
 
Sun_Tzu's Avatar
 
Worgen Priest
 
Stormreaver (EU)
The spec doesn't require a particularly optimized setup or particularly great gear. It's a 25man spec, and it will work just fine on normal modes, however there is little need for optimizing tide or extending your mana pool in normal modes. For hard modes, contrary to what you suggest, it helps ease the tension on less well geared Shamans mana pools, allowing them to occasionally replenish them through LB spam. It does not diminish your output one bit (I've ran a bit under 20k sustained throughput with this spec on hard modes), as it does not give up any healing potential for the added utility. The only reason you'd see this spec healing less than usual is because it can function as a reliable range interrupter, which given that Paragon seldom runs with Shamans otherwise, is probably part of the role for them.

The primary reason I'd see for Paragon not running this spec any longer on most of their Shamans is in fact that they have to some extent out-geared the need for it.

Ideological concerns don't matter here. This is about what works, and what doesn't, and under what circumstances.

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Old 02/02/11, 10:36 PM   #201
xlink
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Burning Blade
earthliving damage percent

I am getting most of my damage with riptide, then healing wave, then healing stream, then healing rain. My earthliving HoT is only doing about 10% of my total damage in 10 man raids. I dont know how people are getting 40% of total heals from earthliving. Would someone care to explain that and post their healing percentages?

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Old 02/03/11, 1:58 AM   #202
kniff
Glass Joe
 
kniff's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Ahn'Qiraj (EU)
Originally Posted by xlink View Post
I am getting most of my damage with riptide, then healing wave, then healing stream, then healing rain. My earthliving HoT is only doing about 10% of my total damage in 10 man raids. I dont know how people are getting 40% of total heals from earthliving. Would someone care to explain that and post their healing percentages?
A wild guess is 25mans, some fights like Chimaeron and Maloriak will however push ES up alot thanks to HR and CH proccing all over.

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Old 02/03/11, 4:28 AM   #203
grishaan
Von Kaiser
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Gul'dan (EU)
I usually get (everything 10m normal modes) EL to be:

Magmaw 11%
Nefarian 12%
Chimaeron 21%
Cho'gall 11%

of my total healing. So the 30-40% range ist most likely due to the nature of Shaman Healing in 25m with HR and CH being a big part of your time spent casting and producing quite a lot of overheal thus proccing EL but not contributing that much to your overall healing as expected.

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Old 02/04/11, 5:03 PM   #204
akacia09
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dethecus
Originally Posted by xlink View Post
I am getting most of my damage with riptide, then healing wave, then healing stream, then healing rain. My earthliving HoT is only doing about 10% of my total damage in 10 man raids. I dont know how people are getting 40% of total heals from earthliving. Would someone care to explain that and post their healing percentages?
Did you spec 2/2 Blessing of the Eternals? & how often do you use Chain Heal? Chain Heal was changed so that EL only has 25% of the normal chance to proc & w/ 2/2 Blessings there is a 5% chance to proc EL on targets above 35% health and a 21.25% chance to proc on targets below 35% health. Also using Healing Rain (preferably on a larger size group-maybe your melee & tanks) will also proc EL but on a much lower scale. So definitely find out what content of a raid they are doing. 25 or 10.

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Old 02/08/11, 5:15 PM   #205
Greentouch
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
Has anyone tested to see if the Tsunami and Jar spirit stacks effect MTT on live yet?

All anyone ever needs to know about being a Resto Druid in PVE, complete and up-to-date guide at: Resto Raiding Guide

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Old 02/08/11, 5:38 PM   #206
Doxq
Glass Joe
 
Doxq's Avatar
 
Goblin Shaman
 
<TG>
Arthas
Has anyone tested to see if the Tsunami and Jar spirit stacks effect MTT on live yet?
I don't have access to a Jar, but Tsunami appears not to:

I had 2746 spirit with 5 stacks of Tsunami before MTT, 13730 with it up and 5 stacks, then after removing the 5 stacks I had 13330, meaning it only adds 400, not 400% of the 400 buff.

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Old 02/08/11, 5:48 PM   #207
Moshne
Bald Bull
 
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Pandaren Shaman
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Doxq View Post
I don't have access to a Jar, but Tsunami appears not to:

I had 2746 spirit with 5 stacks of Tsunami before MTT, 13730 with it up and 5 stacks, then after removing the 5 stacks I had 13330, meaning it only adds 400, not 400% of the 400 buff.
Taking your evidence at face value, it is affecting it. The way Mana Tide works is that it takes a snapshot of the eligible spirit you have and creates a buff that is 400% of that snapshot. It doesn't dynamically update if your spirit changes while it is up.

Using your numbers, if you have 2746, including 5 stacks, you get a buff of 4*2746 = 10904. Adding 10904 to your existing 2746 = 13730. When you click off your stacks, you'd expect it to only change based on how much you removed, not 400% of the removed amount.

EDIT: I'll check the Jar when I get home in a few hours. I don't have the 4pc bonus to test it as I'm main spec Elemental. It wasn't working on the PTR, no reason to think they changed that, but worth getting the question out of the way.

Last edited by Moshne : 02/08/11 at 6:01 PM.

<Something Wicked> - 11/13 HM -25m - W/Th/Sun 8-12 CST LF Healer
www.somethingwickedguild.com

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Old 02/08/11, 5:54 PM   #208
Zeknight
Glass Joe
 
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Goblin Shaman
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Doxq View Post
I don't have access to a Jar, but Tsunami appears not to:

I had 2746 spirit with 5 stacks of Tsunami before MTT, 13730 with it up and 5 stacks, then after removing the 5 stacks I had 13330, meaning it only adds 400, not 400% of the 400 buff.
I had "increased by 8788" with absolutely no buffs. (the tooltip on the MTT buff, not my spirit)

I waited for my CD...

I then stacked my Tsunami to 5 and i had "increased by 10338" (again it is based off of MTT tooltip, not my spirit)

This means that Tsunami does in fact work with MTT.

Any news on the Jar?

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Old 02/08/11, 6:07 PM   #209
Rahdik
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Earthen Ring
12088 with both jar and tsunami (400 + 515) compared to 8428 with no trinket buffs.

Both trinkets work with Mana Tide.

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Old 02/08/11, 7:31 PM   #210
doctorhay53
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Cenarius
The short term spirit buffs won't provide mana to your other party members; mana tide will only look at your spirit without the buffs when buffing them.

Unless my friend was reading his spirit wrong, I think this is what the re-design of MTT meant.

Tested with Blood of Isiset

Last edited by doctorhay53 : 02/08/11 at 7:47 PM. Reason: to add what I tested with

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