Although not specifically for shamans, [Core of Ripeness] and [Figurine - Dream Owl] can currently both be used at the same time. I assume it will be fixed at some point.
Also, with regard to the Telluric Currents debate, I have found it invaluable on a few fights (Magmaw, Halfus) where you can easily regen your entire mana bar many times over the fight. But more importantly than that it is nice to be able to cast LB in burn phases knowing you don't have to save mana for it (Chimaeron < 20% for example). I'd definitely never raid without it.
Although a bit silly, it may still be decent to go back to [Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon] as one of our trinkets. Time it with Mana Tide and you get some pretty crazy regen.
Last edited by Rahdik : 12/20/10 at 2:20 AM.
Reason: fixed item link
I read in an earlier post that UE affects the healing of Riptide, but does not actually consume the UE buff, meaning you can essentially get the 30% bonus to Riptide and an additional spell. Because of this, I'm trying to come up with some sort of macro to cast UE before RT whenever it's off cooldown. Does anyone know how I can set something like that up? I'm guessing it could be done with a castsequence macro?
That is incorrect Krayleyna. What was mentioned in an earlier post was that the UnL buff lasts long enough that if you queue a Riptide after any heal, that heal, the subsequent RT direct heal and the RT HoT all benefit from the increased healing from UnL.
If a Riptide simply follows a UE, the buff is consumed.
I'm curious as to the interaction between CH, UE, and Riptide. What kind of direct healing can we see if we cast UE+CH into a target that has Riptide? Do the 25% from Riptide and the 30% (talented) from UE stack additively or multiplicatively (call Webster) or do they stack at all? If multiplicative we could see an increase of 1.25*1.3=1.625 or 62.5% increase for all jumps of Chain Heal making the spell quite useful.
I'm curious as to the interaction between CH, UE, and Riptide. What kind of direct healing can we see if we cast UE+CH into a target that has Riptide? Do the 25% from Riptide and the 30% (talented) from UE stack additively or multiplicatively (call Webster) or do they stack at all? If multiplicative we could see an increase of 1.25*1.3=1.625 or 62.5% increase for all jumps of Chain Heal making the spell quite useful.
This sounds tasty, but don't forget you're using 2 GCDs and you're completely losing the HOT component of the riptide, which causes you to actually do less overall HPM and HPS. I've been using UE before CH occasionally, but more often when I know group damage is about to come but hasn't yet (dispelling Valiona's blackout is a perfect example of this). For riptide it seems to me like it's usually better to just let the hots roll.
This sounds tasty, but don't forget you're using 2 GCDs and you're completely losing the HOT component of the riptide, which causes you to actually do less overall HPM and HPS. I've been using UE before CH occasionally, but more often when I know group damage is about to come but hasn't yet (dispelling Valiona's blackout is a perfect example of this). For riptide it seems to me like it's usually better to just let the hots roll.
Assuming that you roll glyphed riptides and not only track the target it's at but also the duration left on the hot you can target a player with as little as a single tick left on the riptide with the chain heal, thus losing pretty much none of the riptide hot. (Of course this can also be done with non-glyphed RT but you're less likely to have a proper target at any given time, positioning-wise at least). So in cases where these circumstances line up and your UE is off cooldown it should be a valid way to play. A bit hard to plan for though.
That is incorrect Krayleyna. What was mentioned in an earlier post was that the UnL buff lasts long enough that if you queue a Riptide after any heal, that heal, the subsequent RT direct heal and the RT HoT all benefit from the increased healing from UnL.
If a Riptide simply follows a UE, the buff is consumed.
1. I've noticed that Riptide and ES consume UE. I assume UE + ES won't benefit from the bonus, since ES is not a hot or direct heal. I ran H Deadmines using the UE + ES combo and didn't notice a big increase from ES healing (following percent). Are others having the same results?
2. I've seen a split in CH and spot healing (HW) in early raiding. I'm not seeing the crazy proc effect of HW we did in late wrath.
e.g. Completely Different: Inziladun, 10 man
Primary heal, by count: HW (91)
RT (56)
AA (37) % of total healing 4.2
EL % of total healing 6
Compared to Play: Stattix, 25 man. Stattix mostly CH'd off the tank, Inziladun spot healed 4 - 5.
Primary heal: CH (86)
RT (16)
AA (25????) % of total healing 4.5 (21 HW, 2 GHW total)
EL % of total healing 7.8
If AA only proc's off LHW and HW crits, how did Stattix proc 25 AA with 21% crit?
With the proc rate off HW being so low, is the best recovery rotation HR + RT, CH x 2? or HR + RT, spot heal with HW?
It seems as though HW would be best given the mana regen off crit and EL proc rate (only 21% for CL, 100% for HW on targets below 35%), but I'm not seeing it in the logs.
I was under the impression that HPS and HPM wise, if Chain Heal can actually hit 4 people with no over healing, it is the best thing to cast once HR is on the ground. On AOE I usually drop HR and then try to figure out if I can use RT + HW to top people up or if its too dangerous and they need the raid topped up NOW, then I chain heal.
As far as that log report on the CH casting shaman, I think you missed something important - Stattix also cast 17 Healing Surges. If those were all after Riptides, then they could easily make up 15+ of those 25 AA procs.
This sounds tasty, but don't forget you're using 2 GCDs and you're completely losing the HOT component of the riptide, which causes you to actually do less overall HPM and HPS. I've been using UE before CH occasionally, but more often when I know group damage is about to come but hasn't yet (dispelling Valiona's blackout is a perfect example of this). For riptide it seems to me like it's usually better to just let the hots roll.
I'm not advocating consuming the Riptide buff immediately after you cast it. If you are glyphed for Riptide, you can maintain 3 riptides on a raid and choose one of them to use, most likely the one with the lowest duration left on the target to boost your UEed CH.
Thanks Sard, I hadn't realized that HSurge would proc AA, given the tool tip (and hard to follow in raid with the delay). Did a breakdown of healing sample where I could see surge, hw, rt, and AA.
I'm not seeing him combine RT with HSurge, but if you consider the force proc of two AA on, say, a targeted attack like acquiring target that's (potentially) 2 6000 - 7500 smart heals. I get stuck single target healing, at least we have more variety now. It seems like 2 surges with proc's may be better than 2 GHW? Still less mana efficient without 2 crits.
HSurge
2202 + (5946 x 2) = 14094 mana
3000 + (23000 x 2) + (6900 x 2)(0.36) = 53968 healing
- 0.36 is 30% crit gear + 30% crit from proc, multiplied by itself for 2 possible crits
GHW
2202 + (6607 x 2) = 15416 mana
3000 + (21400 x 1.3)(2) = 58640 healing
Personally, I have basically stopped using RT x 2 GHW and use RT x 2 HS in its place for burst single target healing. Even with the Tidal Waves buff, GHW's are still 1.75 second cast vs 1.5 for HS (both modified a bit by your haste stat obviously). Smart heals are amazing as always and I would rather have part of that healing burst be smart heal - the target I'm HS'ing might not be the lowest health person and someone could take a big hit mid cast that the smart heal of AA finds. When I'm using that burst healing on a tank, I also like the reliable AH refresh that the HS's provide.
HSurge
2202 + (5946 x 2) = 14094 mana
3000 + (23000 x 2) + (6900 x 2)(0.36) = 53968 healing
- 0.36 is 30% crit gear + 30% crit from proc, multiplied by itself for 2 possible crits
GHW
2202 + (6607 x 2) = 15416 mana
3000 + (21400 x 1.3)(2) = 58640 healing
Improved Water Shield needs to be taken into account. You may be interested in the spreadsheets earlier in the thread where the HPM and HPS of HS and GHW are compared with IWS accounted for - the result is that under TW, HS seems to have better HPS and HPM than GHW.
Originally Posted by Sardaukar
Personally, I have basically stopped using RT x 2 GHW and use RT x 2 HS in its place for burst single target healing. Even with the Tidal Waves buff, GHW's are still 1.75 second cast vs 1.5 for HS (both modified a bit by your haste stat obviously). Smart heals are amazing as always and I would rather have part of that healing burst be smart heal - the target I'm HS'ing might not be the lowest health person and someone could take a big hit mid cast that the smart heal of AA finds. When I'm using that burst healing on a tank, I also like the reliable AH refresh that the HS's provide.
Right - that is also my experience anecdotally. As was mentioned, the math supports this as well.
Speaking of which, this statement in the OP could use a rewrite in light of the above:
Originally Posted by Philondra
Q. How do I properly use Unleash Life (UnL)?
A. Use it when you expect the tank to take heavy damage in the next several seconds or when you expect the raid to need healing very shortly. Never use it with Healing Surge (Greater Healing Wave would end up being just as fast with less mana burned)...
Firstly, GHW costs more than HS, so "less mana burned" is a bit misleading - while it's true that HS costs more mana per second casting than GHW, Tidal Waves makes that moot, as has been shown.
Secondly, if "just as fast" refers to the cast time reduction of GHW from TW, HS is still faster by a couple tenths of a second, which is significant. Even if that time difference doesn't save someone from dying, it still means you are buying time for more Lightning Bolts for regen. Not to mention the main point that HS seems to have better HPS and HPM than GHW to begin with. For single target healing, I love using a UE to HS + RT combo, especially on my tank with ES - gotta love Nature's Blessing.
Speaking of which, this statement in the OP could use a rewrite in light of the above:
Originally Posted by Philondra
Q. How do I properly use Unleash Life (UnL)?
A. Use it when you expect the tank to take heavy damage in the next several seconds or when you expect the raid to need healing very shortly. Never use it with Healing Surge (Greater Healing Wave would end up being just as fast with less mana burned), Healing Wave (If the target doesn't need much healing, why are you blowing a 15s cooldown?), or Riptide (same as Healing Wave, except UnL only affects the initial heal.)
Firstly, GHW costs more than HS, so "less mana burned" is a bit misleading - while it's true that HS costs more mana per second casting than GHW, Tidal Waves makes that moot, as has been shown.
Secondly, if "just as fast" refers to the cast time reduction of GHW from TW, HS is still faster by a couple tenths of a second, which is significant. Even if that time difference doesn't save someone from dying, it still means you are buying time for more Lightning Bolts for regen. Not to mention the main point that HS seems to have better HPS and HPM than GHW to begin with. For single target healing, I love using a UE to HS + RT combo, especially on my tank with ES - gotta love Nature's Blessing.
You will still get approximately 1-2k average heal extra from GHW, specifically because it is a slightly longer heal. Moreover, it's a more realiable average heal - if you're counting on a UE+HS to cushion you against a big hit, you could end up very disappointed if it doesn't crit.
1. I've noticed that Riptide and ES consume UE. I assume UE + ES won't benefit from the bonus, since ES is not a hot or direct heal. I ran H Deadmines using the UE + ES combo and didn't notice a big increase from ES healing (following percent). Are others having the same results?
2. I've seen a split in CH and spot healing (HW) in early raiding. I'm not seeing the crazy proc effect of HW we did in late wrath.
e.g. Completely Different: Inziladun, 10 man
Primary heal, by count: HW (91)
RT (56)
AA (37) % of total healing 4.2
EL % of total healing 6
Compared to Play: Stattix, 25 man. Stattix mostly CH'd off the tank, Inziladun spot healed 4 - 5.
Primary heal: CH (86)
RT (16)
AA (25????) % of total healing 4.5 (21 HW, 2 GHW total)
EL % of total healing 7.8
If AA only proc's off LHW and HW crits, how did Stattix proc 25 AA with 21% crit?
With the proc rate off HW being so low, is the best recovery rotation HR + RT, CH x 2? or HR + RT, spot heal with HW?
It seems as though HW would be best given the mana regen off crit and EL proc rate (only 21% for CL, 100% for HW on targets below 35%), but I'm not seeing it in the logs.
Inziladun = me . This is still very dependent on the fight. 10 man omnitron doesn't require super high HPS if people are avoiding standing in bad stuff and interrupting Arcane Annihilator, so I was able to use HW as my primary in that fight. It's just during Magmatron's AOE that you really need big heals (which is where I was casting chain heal, we generally couldn't group up for healing rain due to other fight mechanics such as Chain Lightning).
The only fights so far that I've been able to heal like this in are Omnitron and Conclave. In general, there aren't many fights where you can have HW be your primary due to the low HPS, so I'm more focused on RT, CH, HS, and using HW as a filler (and UE when it's up).
I would be interested in the methodology used to determine these values. Because I was too lazy to generate a statistically relevant sample, I took the values from the tooltips and, as far as the tooltips scale with Spell Healing, I arrive at different numbers: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...aYUhSV1E&hl=en
Last edited by Jessamy : 12/29/10 at 9:48 AM.
Reason: removing the hand-holding request so people aren't tempted to reply to it
One of the recommendations on the first page is to glyph for Earthshield, ELW and Riptide. In reading elsewhere, I came across advice around using glyph of water shield so I thought it might be worth theorycrafting.
I took a look at the spread-sheet for mana regen from https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CKuowMIF#gid=0 and fixed the value for Water Shield at level 85 (for some reason it has 900 mp5 as the base mana regen there).
If the sheet is otherwise accurate for regen (and it does match my character sheet, so it should be pretty close), the Glyph of Water Shield is worth just about 250 points of sprit given ilevel 342 levels of intellect. Which means you are effectively trading 250 points of crit / mastery / haste (whatever you want to reforge it into) for the ELW or Riptide glyph.
I believe the following is correct for rating conversions:
179.29 Crit Rating = 1% Crit
128.057 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
179.28 Mastery Rating = 1 Mastery
So... are the extra ticks on Riptide or the extra ELW effect worth about 2% haste or 1.7% crit or 1.7 mastery rating? My guess is "no" based on what I'm seeing in heroics at the moment (and likely a much more forceful "no" in raid, but we'll see when I look at the log splits).
One of the recommendations on the first page is to glyph for Earthshield, ELW and Riptide. In reading elsewhere, I came across advice around using glyph of water shield so I thought it might be worth theorycrafting.
I took a look at the spread-sheet for mana regen from https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CKuowMIF#gid=0 and fixed the value for Water Shield at level 85 (for some reason it has 900 mp5 as the base mana regen there).
If the sheet is otherwise accurate for regen (and it does match my character sheet, so it should be pretty close), the Glyph of Water Shield is worth just about 250 points of sprit given ilevel 342 levels of intellect. Which means you are effectively trading 250 points of crit / mastery / haste (whatever you want to reforge it into) for the ELW or Riptide glyph.
I believe the following is correct for rating conversions:
179.29 Crit Rating = 1% Crit
128.057 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
179.28 Mastery Rating = 1 Mastery
So... are the extra ticks on Riptide or the extra ELW effect worth about 2% haste or 1.7% crit or 1.7 mastery rating? My guess is "no" based on what I'm seeing in heroics at the moment (and likely a much more forceful "no" in raid, but we'll see when I look at the log splits).
I don't think anyone is going to reforge spirit off of their gear just because they're using the glyph considering we want to get as much spirit as possible. Basically you'd have the same amount of crit/mastery/haste with or without the glyph so it doesn't have any impact either way. You're still only trading regen for the effects of riptide or elw.
I don't think anyone is going to reforge spirit off of their gear just because they're using the glyph considering we want to get as much spirit as possible. Basically you'd have the same amount of crit/mastery/haste with or without the glyph so it doesn't have any impact either way. You're still only trading regen for the effects of riptide or elw.
Possibly, but the point of the analysis is to start down the path to figuring out how to compare the 4 prime glyphs in an apples to apples way.
Though I feel a bit crippled in the "data" department without shaman_hep parsing my fights, I did run through my logs from last night after trading my glyph of Riptide for a glyph of Water Shield and then moving about 240 spirit over to crit (and a bit of mastery). We only fought Magmaw 10, but we did it such an embarrassing number of times that the data shouldn't be so bad for that class of fight. I was on the MT primarily with pretty regular healing rains dropped on the DPS / Tanks / Heals that were close-in to the boss.
Earthliving weapon HOT made up about 9.8% of my effective heals (with 20% overheal). It seems fair to guess that this would mean that the Glyph of Earthliving weapon probably was worth about 2% of my total effective heals.
Riptide HOT (not initial hit) appears to have made up almost exactly another 10% of my healing (only 9% overheal here, not sure if it captures ticks that are 100% overheal at this point). Best case, the glyph would add another 2 ticks to the 6 that I should have now, or about 3% or so of my healing.
So, at least for this one fight and/or my play style of the evening it seems like the equivalent throughput value of the stats that you could potentially gain from using the glyph of water shield is lower than the throughput value of the Earthliving and Riptide glyphs.
As an aside, Glyph of Earthshield was actually the weakest for me here. ES was only 5.5% of effective healing, meaning the glyph was worth ~1.1% of effective heals. I'd guess you could start making a reasonable throughput argument there.
I'm not sure Zunali was suggesting we compare glyphs directly. For instance, ES has a few nuances that make it difficult to compare to the others. ES is incredibly efficient because it heals when your tank is hit which makes it hard to estimate throughput etc. I don't want to clutter this with a bunch of tables from log parses so here is about 3 hours of raiding from 25 man: Earth Shield returned 1,651,844 total healing with 382 hits, around 4895.4 HPS and 11.7 % overhealing. It was exactly 5.5% of my healing (pretty typical). If you look at the breakdown parse: Cheesenips you can see that it systematically returns heals based on tank dmg taken. This is quite different from ELW which has a chance to proc off healing done (raid healing could be 'better' for ELW glyph given more target opportunity). Water shield is a crutch glyph right now to help shaman manage mana.
Your ELW may be low because of the type of healing you were doing. I was oHealing a tank and the raid (all the healing wave spam), but my ELW is typically pretty high without the glyph. Compare with a good example of a raid healer: Statixx with glyph. This is where I'd like to be when main tank healers get situated.
And with Statixx (among other players) in mind, and the reforging away from spirit and crit, several players are doing this for the basic mechanics until they get better gear. From a purists perspective, shaman would never reforge from crit because of the mana regen, AA procs etc., but I'm not convinced players are reforging because of the glyphs they are using.
Last edited by Cheesenips : 12/30/10 at 4:24 AM.
Reason: it's late, having trouble articulating ... and I can't delete the post
And with Statixx (among other players) in mind, and the reforging away from spirit and crit, several players are doing this for the basic mechanics until they get better gear. From a purists perspective, shaman would never reforge from crit because of the mana regen, AA procs etc., but I'm not convinced players are reforging because of the glyphs they are using.
I'm probably not a "purist" as you define above since I'm game to try most anything
In my recent round of experimenting, I did find something that wasn't obvious to me initially, but is a bit of a "Duh" in retrospect:
Replacing my Glyph of Riptide with Glyph of Water Shield didn't seem to give me notably more mana endurance.
The issue is related to playstyle: I try to keep the Riptide HoT up on the tank at all times. If you do this without the glyph you need to cast Riptide MUCH more often. Napkin math says that this costs an additional 173 MP5 (taking into account Water Shield procs on the initial cast and 25% crit rate). Glyph of Water Shield only returns 177 MP5.
So.. if your play style is like mine and you try to always keep the Riptide HoT up on the tank/OT/ranged tank as a passive HOT, you won't see the mana gains that you may expect at first glance. As you might guess, I'm reactivating my Riptide glyph.
Q. How do I properly use Unleash Life (UnL)?
A. Riptide (same as Healing Wave, except UnL only affects the initial heal.)
This is false.
In stormwind, waited each time for all my normal trinket procs to fall off and only tested at 100% health using the combat log overhealing reported ticks:
Normal Riptide: 1555 ticks
UnL Riptide: 1837 ticks.
Tested 1/4/11
Retested with no int/spellpower gear on (*wore only an agi axe with earthliving)
Result @ lv85:
Normal Riptide: 1087 ticks
UnL Riptide: 1285 ticks
PS: Riptide glyph was not in effect for either test. Earth shield was not up. Since all tests involved casting riptide on myself, spark of life was inflating the results.
The darkmoon card: blue dragon card could be worth seriously considering in a raid. Most trinkets are itemised so that the passive/procc average at 285/285 or 285/340 (346 ilvl), or 321/321 & 321/385 (359 ilvl).
The Blue Dragon card doubles your spirit regen when it proccs, so this could be modelled as doubling your spirit, i.e the procc is worth as much as your raid-buffed spirit.
Testing with rshaman in guild's stats, he has 2063 spirit, but with mana tide/dream owl use effect up, he has 15696 spirit. Assuming an average of 2seconds between casts, it has a roughly 100 second interval between proccs, average. That would mean roughly 15% uptime.
If it proccs 3 times in 300 seconds, and you mana tide one of them, it averages to ~991 spirit
If it proccs 4 times in 400 seconds, and you mana tide one of them, it averages to ~821 spirit
If it proccs 4 times in 400 seconds, and you mana tide two of them, it averages to ~1332 spirit
This requires a dream owl used every mana tide, but it is better to save it a minute and get 350% more benefit from it than to just use on cooldown (unless the fight were to end shortly after). Still, this gives a lot more than the current cata trinkets.
That being said, it isn't a reliable procc, and may just simply not procc when you need it. Might be worth experimenting with.
Edit: The benefit of this trinket would be further increased with the 4set bonus
12/19/10, 3:55 AM
. This is still very dependent on the fight. 10 man omnitron doesn't require super high HPS if people are avoiding standing in bad stuff and interrupting Arcane Annihilator, so I was able to use HW as my primary in that fight. It's just during Magmatron's AOE that you really need big heals (which is where I was casting chain heal, we generally couldn't group up for healing rain due to other fight mechanics such as Chain Lightning).
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