[Elemental] Cataclysm Discussion - Patch 4.3 - Page 2

Daikon · 12/13/10, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by Jahamakarahl

To not include Unleash Elements in a Rotation is a huge loss of dps. I've done some calculations and I've come to the conclution that Unleash Elements should be used the Exact second as you throw you LvB, This way you avoid a GC that would normaly come if you use UE before casting LvB. This works only if your standing on a "good" distance away from the Target. With good it's hard to say the exact ammount of yards but You will get the hang of it. Long enough for the UE to be active before the LvB hits the Target, If you fail a new FS DoT is recommended before the UE runs out. Don't throw the FS right away (Unless your FS DoT is about to expire) instead wait and see if you will get a Lava Surge. Then throw your LvB.

Feedback on this is greatly appreciated, If I find time I will make a Spreadsheet otherwise I will gladly compliment if someone beats me to it.

I am not sure if that is how casting mechanic work. If that is true then you should be able to cast LvB even with no FS debuff on the target and still get guaranteed crit by using FS right after. The FS will hit the target before the LvB does just like what you propose with UE. However that previous scenario does not work because the spell is calculated when it finishes casting, not when it hits the target.

Torrential · 12/13/10, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Bfamredux

Would the Glyph of Flametongue Weapon (+2% spell crit while active) be a DPS boost over an extra 9 seconds of Flame Shock?

I guess the question is: Is 2% spell crit better than the loss of DPS from casting 9 seconds' worth of other damage?

Two glyph slots are always going to be Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. For your third 2% crit is better pure dps than the extra 9 seconds of flame shock if you never had a conflict between ES and FS which is really up to a tiny bit of luck and (mostly) your ability to manage the shock cooldown. However if a fight is going to be at least 6 minutes long and allow your flame ele to be useful (lots of fights have mechanics or reasons your flame ele [a dumbass pet] won't be useful) then the Fire Ele glyph is better than both.

Originally Posted by Jahamakarahl

To not include Unleash Elements in a Rotation is a huge loss of dps. I've done some calculations and I've come to the conclution that Unleash Elements should be used the Exact second as you throw you LvB, This way you avoid a GC that would normaly come if you use UE before casting LvB. This works only if your standing on a "good" distance away from the Target. With good it's hard to say the exact ammount of yards but You will get the hang of it. Long enough for the UE to be active before the LvB hits the Target, If you fail a new FS DoT is recommended before the UE runs out. Don't throw the FS right away (Unless your FS DoT is about to expire) instead wait and see if you will get a Lava Surge. Then throw your LvB.

Feedback on this is greatly appreciated, If I find time I will make a Spreadsheet otherwise I will gladly compliment if someone beats me to it.

This is not how things work. When you cast a Lava Burst the damage it's going to do is determined the instant your cast is finished. Any flame shock application, UE use, trinket procs etc. while the spell is in flight to the target have no effect.

Originally Posted by Tielc

So a little birdie tells me the other day that Unleash Elements can effect the dots off from my Flame Shock. Is this correct? It obviously has to do with how I manage my UE cooldown, movement, etc.

It does. I like to UE on pulls just before using a macro that casts EM, Blood Fury, and my best on use trinket if I have one and then applying flame shock. That gets a good inital DoT up there. I also like UI on pull just because it gets me attacking so I can then drop searing totem and have it actually do something.

♦ masanbol · 12/13/10, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jahamakarahl

To not include Unleash Elements in a Rotation is a huge loss of dps. I've done some calculations and I've come to the conclution that Unleash Elements should be used the Exact second as you throw you LvB, This way you avoid a GC that would normaly come if you use UE before casting LvB. This works only if your standing on a "good" distance away from the Target. With good it's hard to say the exact ammount of yards but You will get the hang of it. Long enough for the UE to be active before the LvB hits the Target, If you fail a new FS DoT is recommended before the UE runs out. Don't throw the FS right away (Unless your FS DoT is about to expire) instead wait and see if you will get a Lava Surge. Then throw your LvB.

Feedback on this is greatly appreciated, If I find time I will make a Spreadsheet otherwise I will gladly compliment if someone beats me to it.

Echoing what others have said here in that casting mechanics just do not work this way. In addition, whether you realize this or not, UE does in fact incur a GCD when cast, which at this point is not a DPS increase over using a LB in its place. As mentioned in the FAQ, it's useful for movement since it does not trigger a shock cooldown (and will boost a FS or LvB cast soon after, thus mitigating the loss of DPS from movement), but unless its single target damage is buffed considerably and its scaling issues are addressed, LB beats it out and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

grrkthekilla · 12/13/10, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by masanbol

Echoing what others have said here in that casting mechanics just do not work this way. In addition, whether you realize this or not, UE does in fact incur a GCD when cast, which at this point is not a DPS increase over using a LB in its place. As mentioned in the FAQ, it's useful for movement since it does not trigger a shock cooldown (and will boost a FS or LvB cast soon after, thus mitigating the loss of DPS from movement), but unless its single target damage is buffed considerably and its scaling issues are addressed, LB beats it out and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Is completely correct, in order for UE to be useful in a rotation, the damage it does plus the bonus damage it applise to LvB or FS has to be greater than a LB. That is very hard to do since FS and UE do not benefit from mastery, and LB generally hits harder.

On a side note, is the stat priotization correct for Cata? Last I had checked mastery was ahead of haste as something to reforge and look for on gear and possibly gem.

♦ masanbol · 12/14/10, 9:39 AM

The mastery > haste stat priorities were for 4.0.1, things are somewhat different at 85.

csarichmond · 12/15/10, 3:00 AM

I don't find that I agree with your advice to omit Unleash Elements from the rotation.

Yes, it is a dps loss when purely compared to a LB cast. However, when using it immediately prior to a LvB, one has to compare BOTH the damage from the UE itself, plus the extra 20% gained on the LvB following it to the damage from a single LB alone.

Looking through my data for my fight on Argaloth a couple of days ago, I found that when I added the average damage from UE itself, plus the extra from the LvB, this came out as roughly 1000 more than an average LB cast (14500 vs 13500).

So, even without factoring the reduced casting time of the UE compared to the slightly longer LB, it seems that this is, in fact, bringing a definite dps boost.

doogless · 12/15/10, 3:49 AM

In your approximation, you're missing that UE can't overload and doesn't gain Lightning Shield charges for Fulmination like LB.

♦ masanbol · 12/15/10, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by csarichmond

I don't find that I agree with your advice to omit Unleash Elements from the rotation.

Yes, it is a dps loss when purely compared to a LB cast. However, when using it immediately prior to a LvB, one has to compare BOTH the damage from the UE itself, plus the extra 20% gained on the LvB following it to the damage from a single LB alone.

Looking through my data for my fight on Argaloth a couple of days ago, I found that when I added the average damage from UE itself, plus the extra from the LvB, this came out as roughly 1000 more than an average LB cast (14500 vs 13500).

So, even without factoring the reduced casting time of the UE compared to the slightly longer LB, it seems that this is, in fact, bringing a definite dps boost.

This is incorrect because you're missing that UE consumes a GCD on it's own, as does LvB, so if you want to use the logic you just did, you would have to compare UE + LvB to two LB casts, not just one. It doesn't stack up, and it won't unless its single-target damage or damage bonus is increased.

Alternately you could do what we did, which is take only the bonus damage gained by buffing LvB or FS with UE (do not include the base damage of FS or LvB themselves, since that would be present anyways), add it to the single-target damage of Unleash Flame, and compare that to a LB cast. Even factoring things in like DPCT, a LB is better.

Torrential · 12/15/10, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by masanbol

If you're not hit capped, gem and enchant for it first, then follow the rules above. If you absolutely have to, reforge crit to Spirit to reach the hit cap.

Is this really a good idea? This tells people it would be better to use a 40 spirit gem in a blue slot rather than 20 Int/20 SPI instead of reforging crit to spirit. Trading INT away instead of trading crit away doesn't seem like a good idea. Or in the case of a wrist enchant trading away 65 Haste to get 50 hit. Enchants/Gems are just not the place to trade away stats to meet your hit requirements as far as I can tell. What you trade away out values what you get.

I have found that with the excel solver function it is almost always possible to land exactly on the spirit/hit mark you need to be at 17.00% when reforging. Much of the time by only letting it hack away at my crit to get there. It seems to me that gemming/enchanting following the stat rules then letting reforging hit the exact mark you need is a better way to go about things. By nailing the mark you're not wasting any budget on a 0-value stat (ie spirit/hit over the cap) and you're not trading away INT/SP to get your hit.

♦ masanbol · 12/15/10, 12:33 PM

You're absolutely right. That portion of the rules was intended for 4.0.1 when reforging was our only source of mastery, so it's out of date. I'll update it momentarily.

WildWolfy · 12/15/10, 2:21 PM

I've read this article and there's a bunch of great topics and information.

The only thing I didn’t see mentioned was enchants.

So basically I would like to talk about our level 85 "raid worthy" enchants. Please note: This also assumes your hit capped.

This is how I see it, and please let me know your thoughts.

Head: [Arcanum of Hyjal]

Shoulders: [Greater Inscription of Charged Lodestone]

Cloak: [Enchant Cloak - Greater Intellect]

Chest: [Formula: Enchant Chest - Peerless Stats]

Bracer: [Item not found!]

Gloves: [Item not found!]

Legs: [Powerful Ghostly Spellthread]

Boots: [Item not found!]

Ring: Enchant Ring - Intellect

Weapon: [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Power Torrent]

Shield: [Enchant Off-Hand - Superior Intellect]

Here’s a list of enchants to use on your greens/blues before you start getting epics worthy of “big money” enchants.

Head: [Arcanum of Hyjal]

Shoulders: [Lesser Inscription of Charged Lodestone]

Cloak: [Item not found!]

Chest: [Item not found!]

Bracer: [Item not found!]

Gloves: [Item not found!]

Legs: [Ghostly Spellthread]

Boots: [Item not found!]

Ring: Enchant Ring - Intellect

Weapon: [Item not found!]

Shield: [Enchant Off-Hand - Superior Intellect]

chill1 · 12/15/10, 2:33 PM

The 100 int to offhand enchant works on shields.

Torrential · 12/15/10, 2:48 PM

Might want to mention for reforging that as hybrids we get the nice ability to reforge to hit even if an item already has hit. If an item has spirit/crit we can reforge to hit and if it has hit/crit we can reforge to spirit. Opens up more options.

• Jessamy · 12/15/10, 3:08 PM

The greater and lesser shoulder enchants cost the same. So as soon as you're exalted with Therazane, there's no reason to ever use the lesser lodestone.

Sharkweek · 12/17/10, 4:09 PM

I'm sure most people have figured this out by now, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyways. If you're freaking out about mana when you first start running 85 dungeons, don't worry too much. Lightning Bolt costs 6% of base mana (which stays constant), while Rolling Thunder procs return 2% of maximum mana (which is based on gear). This means that once 2% of your maximum mana exceeds 6% of base mana you'll start seeing a return on Rolling Thunder procs. You'll still see a net decrease in mana until 2% of your max mana makes up for non-Rolling Thunder procs, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, etc, but it gets a little better at that point.

There are a few other things that affect our mana regen, such as clearcasting or free Lightning Bolts from Elemental Overload proccing Rolling Thunder, but max mana seems to be the biggest factor. After I hit the point where I was getting back more from Rolling Thunder than my Lightning Bolt costs I stopped being perpetually out of mana in instances.